Documenting the horror that is Hamas

[Brumbies]

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Re look at your numbers as I think you got a little confused there but fair enough. Most people would very much prefer these not to be the only two options. I personally believe that if the surrounding more peaceful countries were to step in and insist on policing things from here on a permanent ceasefire could happen and maybe Israel will abandon there mission early. This would mean less than the 50 to 100 thousand deaths I believe are likely.

“Who is the problem”? You mean to say that Muslims are the problem.

It’s the Middle East! The majority religion is Islam, so of course more deaths in any conflict are going to be Muslims dying.

Your pie chart could be equally generated regarding Europe, or the Americas in terms of Christians killing mostly Christians since the 1940s and be like “Who is the Problem?”

It’s the most childish reductive oversimplified analysis I have ever seen of war casualties with the aim to blame a religion.

I thought you meant only 50,000 to 100,000 Gazans left by the time Israel finished. Either way it is unacceptable, but I thank you for clarifying what you meant.

Evidence?

Hamas haven’t genocided the Jewish people. Those were the Nazis.

Hamas haven’t genocided the Jewish people.

They would if they could though. 7 October was a taster.

@Trulywonderful

What has the number of Arabs killed by Arabs have to do with anything? That is deflecting from what this situation is really about, and akin to saying: oh what of the Boer War in which the English killed 45,000 civilians- neighbouring African states have killed far more Africans! As if this somehow absolves the English of their crimes.

This type of reasoning seeks to obscure the real issues. I drew attention to the ‘lop-sided’ graph to show despite Israel’s constant insistence of the threat it faces from Palestinians, it’s actually Palestinians that are being slaughtered in huge numbers- not Israelis. But we never hear that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves- only the Israelis. The Palestines should quietly submit and allow themselves to be subjugated and slaughtered.

Of course, Israelis do face rock throwers (the audacity of those children) and rockets but they live in comparative luxury with the protection of a state and an army, with full civil rights, compared to the internment camp of Gazans and the apartheid which West Bank Palestines live under. Again, this brings me back to the simple point, if Israel did not insist on this violent occupation, the threat which emanates from the Palestinian legal right to resist (recognised in international law) would not exist. And actually within international law, the common defence that Israel has a right to defend itself is a paradox- a state does not have the right to defend itself from a threat that emanates from its own occupation. The logic is clear.

But they haven’t “done it already” as stomachamelon said. You’re right too, they can’t. They are not a genocidal level threat because they don’t have an army, navy, air force, weapons or the political will.

What's the difference between 1200 people targeted and slaughtered on the basis of their ethnicity over two days, and 6 million over four years? It's the same genocidal imperative, driven by hatred and some bonkers ideology.

This 100%

I said Arab/Muslim in my posts because this is not a western colonialist Jewish issue like Aljazeera media sorts or some antizionist types try to portray. It is something way more complicated and is a Middle eastern problem in general. Yes on of my graphics says mulsims because it isn't a graphic I created but an example. However the general logic is still the same and useful for people that believe this is a Jewish problem (of which there are many believers). In this case the graphic shows it is not Jewish people that have caused the most wars and death in the middle east.

Yes similarly in Europe or America you will find Christians are likely to have killed the most Christians in the last 75 years or so I can imagine.

The problem I refer to is what people call the Jewish Problem in the middle east. Similarly the Nazis referred to the Jewish problem in Europe. This reference to the Jewish Problem in the Middle East you sometimes see not only on social media or Aljazeera but on signs at protest marches. What I am saying is Jews are not the problem in the middle east. That the Arabs/Muslims have there own issues that have most the time got nothing to do with Jews or Israel.

My point as I started clearly was why talk about death figures from the past in general. They are a pointless measure as I explained. It doesn't show what happor why. It doesn't explain the cause and affect very well either. However if you chose to go down that path I will provide figures that reflect the real issues in the middle east. This is a proxy conflict and since 1948 has always been a proxy conflict. Arafat was clear in the 60s this conflict was about the Arab cause and Hamas is just another example of it being about what Iran wants rather than Arabs on the land need. Therefore if we talk about figures it is very helpful to look at the middle east as a whole.

However if you want to talk about the current conflict then stick to the figures since 7th October. Totally up to you and I have said I see past death figures as irrelevant

If you think there is no difference between the “genocidal imperative” of the two, then I’d hope you would agree that the “genocidal imperative” is also the same in regards to the 21,000+ civilians killed by IDF in the West Bank and Gaza who were and are being targeted for their ethnicity as Palestinians.

No one has referred to Israel as a “Jewish problem in the Middle East” except you. That’s an awful allegation to make.

But your post and graph plainly are trying to cast the conflict between Israel and its Occupied Palestinian Territories as a “Arab/Muslim” problem. It’s really disconcerting to see you adopt the same sort of language that was used by the Nazis against Jewish people but use it to justify the ongoing massacre of Arab Muslims & Arab Christians by Israel and their ally the USA.

Oh and rock throwing isn't just naughty kids. Rocks have killed and injured people. It is the tradition way to execute people in the area too. So taken very seriously.

I remember a few years ago a rock getting through through a car window and killing a baby in a carseat. Not something you forget as a mother of a baby of similar age at the time.

I am pretty sure that if people were throwing rocks at cars or people in your own town country you would not see it as naughty kids or harmless behaviour of adults.

I don’t think past death figures for Israel & Palestine are irrelevant. I was more objecting to the use of past death figures covering the entire Middle East.

I don’t agree with the Iran angle at all. Arafat was clear in the 90s by the Oslo Accords that “the cause” was a free independent state of Palestine in a two state solution, living peacefully next to Israel.

There is an ocean of distinction between harmless naughtiness and terrorist attacks. The fact that throwing a stone in the general direction of a vehicle or soldier is logged as a terrorist attack is questionable at best.

Firstly go look at some of the signs on marches on the antisemitic placard thread. Else just Google to find some social media idiots talking about the Jewish Problem or solution etc

Secondly I didn't start talking about death figures from the past 75 years that was someone else. I just explained why they were irrelevant in the current conversation. You would prefer that was unchallenged but I don't think it should be because it paints a picture that is lop sided rather than looking at why it is that these deaths happened.

Anyway we shall have to just disagree on this, if you like

2.29 million people will not be slaughtered

You posted the pie graph showing Muslim on Muslim war casualties in the entire Middle East said it showed “who is the problem”. That is what we have been discussing.

Again, I have never seen anyone refer to Israel like that on MN, perhaps it’s better to engage with posters without thinking they have the same views as AntiSemitics.

Happy to agree to disagree.

Also I find these weird slogans like ‘if it isn’t Jews it isn’t news’ extremely odd - whenever an important point is made, throwing in a rhyming slogan isn’t a very clever way to deflect from the critical analysis of the point.

If anything the reverse is true- decades long policy has shown Palestinian lives hold no value for western society.

Their mass slaughter, subjugation to military occupation, dispossession and living under apartheid rule doesn’t seem to bother western democracies.

The mirroring phenomenon, the perception of the victim as the aggressor, has been addressed by a few Jewish scholars.

I got that thanks. The way it was worded, it sounded like the poster thought it was a question of risking 9 million living Jewish people’s lives or risking 50,000-100,000 living Gazan peoples lives “by the time Israel finished its mission.”

Normally in an “or” choice you’d have parallel construction grammatically, so there would not be a comparison of risking lives of the living or risking lives of the dead (because the dead are not alive)?

Grammatically, the poster should have worded it to show the # of Gazan lives as the # living post conflict.

You have said this more than once now
What Is the evidence of this? That Hamas has ethnically cleansed the Christians?

It is an odd slogan to use, because typically when there is racism, it would be about the privileged party?

For example it has been said about murdered or missing women that
”if it isn’t a white woman, it isn’t news”

I found this survey from 2020 of Christians in Palestine.
The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research conducted a public opinion poll among Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip during the period between 27 January and 23 February 2020. The poll sought to explore the reasons that drive Christians to emigrate from their homeland in Palestine to other countries and the various means that could potentially stem the flow. Total size of the sample is 995 Christian adults interviewed face to face in 98 selected locations in seven Palestinian governorates. Margin of error is +/-3%.

Nearly 6 in 10 respondents identified economics as the main reason they consider emigration (59%).

About 8 in 10 worry about attacks from Jewish settlers and being driven from their homes (83%). About 7 in 10 worry about Israeli annexation (67%). And about 6 in 10 believe Israel’s goal is to expel Christians from their homeland (62%).

And in terms of actual experience, 42 percent must regularly cross Israeli checkpoints, and 14 percent have lost land to the occupation.

Nearly 2 in 3 said they had “excellent or normal” relations with Muslim neighbors (65%), while only 10 percent described relations as “medium or bad.”

One in five Christians consider their Muslim neighbors to be “liberal or open minded” (20%), while 64 percent find their neighbors “moderate,” and only 9 percent describe their neighbours as “too religious or extreme.”

http://pcpsr.org/en/node/806