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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

IDF shot a 9 year old boy

360 replies

ThickPinkSocks · 29/11/2023 20:18

Why is this not in the mainstream news? I thought there was a ceasefire!

https://www.instagram.com/p/C0PcyDYuWr0/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

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21
MercanDede · 03/12/2023 16:20

beigecartoon · 03/12/2023 16:10

@MercanDede I'm sorry for misunderstanding. You quoted my quote then said 'You need verified facts that these people said those things, not what looks like hastily put together propaganda' then went on about Hamas so I thought you were disputing that Israeli govt had said genocidal statements. Which I found a little confusing, I hope you understand.

Edited

Don’t apologise, it was my fault I was not clear. I was agreeing with the first part of what you said “even if these screenshots represent the truth (hard to say from a screenshot)..” I can see how you would have thought I meant different as my post was a mess 😬

beigecartoon · 03/12/2023 16:21

@MercanDede no worries, it can be hard to follow sometimes on here especially when we all type out quickly. :)

petuniasandpetals · 03/12/2023 16:33

Do you ever question that what you are reading is propaganda?

Chaitales · 03/12/2023 16:38

petuniasandpetals · 03/12/2023 16:33

Do you ever question that what you are reading is propaganda?

I dont know who or what you are referring to, so answering for myself

I read a lot, and I engage a lot. I read books from across a spectrum of authors and involve myself heavily in interfaith and inter race work.

Everyone will always speak their side of the story. All of us have:

  • a duty to ourselves to try to get information from all sides of a picture, current and historical. Follow different pages, read different books and newspapers, watch various documentaries
  • a responsibility to think for ourselves, outside of only what our race/religion/community is saying and use all the information we have to make informed judgements for ourselves, even if those judgements go against what we grew up believing or if they shake our own comfort zone. I believe all of us are born with a conscience, free will and innate intelligence. Use it.
  • try to be on the right side of history in whatever capacity you can

Also: multiple things can be true. You can fight for innocent lives on both sides of a conflict. You can believe two people have rights to a land. You can hate what a govt/set of people is doing without hating a whole people. You can call for end of killing without advocating for destruction of another.

feralunderclass · 03/12/2023 17:29

miniegg3 · 02/12/2023 20:01

And palastine have refused many more times than that. So you don't have a suggestion them?

Yes I'm aware it's been going on much longer, I don't have a bubble thanks.. I mean the current war obviously

Show quote history

This isn't actually true. Israel talks about a Palestinian state but in reality knows that they have strategically made this impossible. Israel has never been willing to accept any two state solution. They want it all.

Alexandra2001 · 03/12/2023 17:35

miniegg3 · 02/12/2023 19:46

What do you suggest?

It's was against terrorists, war in never pleasant. I think people forget its happening all over, not just in gaza.

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The extermination of up to 2m people isn't whats happening "all over" its only happening in Gaza.

Its irrelevant what Hamas says it wants to do with the Jews, Putin has said he would use nuclear weapons against the UK, is the correct response that we attack Russia with our Tridents?

My opinion on Israel has changed forever, they are no better than Hamas or any other murderous state/terror group, past or present, tbh what they are doing is worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine and by quite a bit too.

Civilian deaths in Ukraine, after 20months of fighting - 10,000, Israel is up to 16000 in just a few weeks.

Whats the more shocking is the UK stand full square with Israel, fucking disgusting.

MissyB1 · 03/12/2023 18:45

@Alexandra2001 I feel the same, I will never be able to view Israel with any respect after this. And I feel sick to the stomach that our own Government refuses to speak out against what is happening.

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:00

Why do you suppose that is? Why do governments not speak out against what Israel is doing?

in my view there would be one of three possible answers:
a) there’s some intelligence they’re not sharing widely that indicates this is necessary
b) they know that if the same happened on their land they’d do the same thing
c) they’re all in conspiracy of some kind.

i think C is unlikely- the breadth of people that would need to be involved makes that virtually impossible.
a is also relatively unlikely- especially given the failure of intelligence in the 3rd Iraq war people will be unlikely to accept that explanation.
which I think leaves b as the most likely explanation- at the end of the day, what Hamas has done was SO brutal that the rest of the worlds political leaders accept that they would be doing the same thing. I also think that Israel is probably continually sharing their intelligence about which Hamas targets they’re going for to justify what they’re doing- it doesn’t seem likely that people would accept they’re just arbitrarily killing and destroying- they must be able to show that what they’re doing is pursuing legitimate military targets. So a mix of a and b really. I also think that pro-Israeli lobby groups are funding political campaigns, which I’m sure is also the same for pro-Hamas lobby groups.

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:05

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:00

Why do you suppose that is? Why do governments not speak out against what Israel is doing?

in my view there would be one of three possible answers:
a) there’s some intelligence they’re not sharing widely that indicates this is necessary
b) they know that if the same happened on their land they’d do the same thing
c) they’re all in conspiracy of some kind.

i think C is unlikely- the breadth of people that would need to be involved makes that virtually impossible.
a is also relatively unlikely- especially given the failure of intelligence in the 3rd Iraq war people will be unlikely to accept that explanation.
which I think leaves b as the most likely explanation- at the end of the day, what Hamas has done was SO brutal that the rest of the worlds political leaders accept that they would be doing the same thing. I also think that Israel is probably continually sharing their intelligence about which Hamas targets they’re going for to justify what they’re doing- it doesn’t seem likely that people would accept they’re just arbitrarily killing and destroying- they must be able to show that what they’re doing is pursuing legitimate military targets. So a mix of a and b really. I also think that pro-Israeli lobby groups are funding political campaigns, which I’m sure is also the same for pro-Hamas lobby groups.

Edited

You are missing option D. Israel is the best investment the US ever made, if Israel didn't exist they would have had to invent an Israel to protect it's interests in the Middle East.

EasterIssland · 03/12/2023 20:08

Option e. Governments are speaking against what Israel is doing ( Ireland / Spain / France have done it and I believe a few more have also said Israel is not taking all the precautions they should be taking)

beigecartoon · 03/12/2023 20:11

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:05

You are missing option D. Israel is the best investment the US ever made, if Israel didn't exist they would have had to invent an Israel to protect it's interests in the Middle East.

Show quote history

This.

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:12

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:05

You are missing option D. Israel is the best investment the US ever made, if Israel didn't exist they would have had to invent an Israel to protect it's interests in the Middle East.

Show quote history

I would say that comes under C- that you’re suggesting that the USA’s investment means they convince people to turn the other way. This would involve some level of conspiracy because then world political leaders would have to say “we’re ok with what’s going on because Biden says so”.

I agree absolutely that the US foreign policy relies on Israel in the Middle East. The alternatives are simply not friends of the west: UAE, Qatar, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt are all countries that are ultimately hostile to US foreign policy. But I don’t think these days people are so in thrall of US foreign policy that they would ignore a humanitarian crisis of this magnitude just because they say so. It doesn’t really add up. It’s not like the demon of the USSR exists in the same way that people act in lockstep with the states for their self protection.

I suppose it might be that fear of global terrorism might be the reason. That’s actually not unlikely. Mossad and 5 eyes are the primary source of global anti-terror intelligence. Thats probably part of the consideration to be fair.

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:15

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:12

I would say that comes under C- that you’re suggesting that the USA’s investment means they convince people to turn the other way. This would involve some level of conspiracy because then world political leaders would have to say “we’re ok with what’s going on because Biden says so”.

I agree absolutely that the US foreign policy relies on Israel in the Middle East. The alternatives are simply not friends of the west: UAE, Qatar, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt are all countries that are ultimately hostile to US foreign policy. But I don’t think these days people are so in thrall of US foreign policy that they would ignore a humanitarian crisis of this magnitude just because they say so. It doesn’t really add up. It’s not like the demon of the USSR exists in the same way that people act in lockstep with the states for their self protection.

I suppose it might be that fear of global terrorism might be the reason. That’s actually not unlikely. Mossad and 5 eyes are the primary source of global anti-terror intelligence. Thats probably part of the consideration to be fair.

Show quote history

If you want to call countries protecting their interests in the Middle East a conspiracy theory then crack on. I don't care.

beigecartoon · 03/12/2023 20:22

Here is Joe Biden openly admitting that Israel is the best investment USA ever made and they would need to invent an Israel if it didn't exist already, as it allows US to protect its interests in the region.

Joe Biden still protecting that investment.. #FreePalestine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKi-aEClS1s

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:23

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:15

If you want to call countries protecting their interests in the Middle East a conspiracy theory then crack on. I don't care.

Show quote history

I didn't mean the US there - I meant all the other countries not criticising. That would be some kind of conspiracy wouldn't it? The point I was trying to make was that in a post-USSR world, the rest of the west doesn't tend to operate in lockstep with US foreign policy so much anymore, and yet many of the west are still remaining silent on this. That's what i'm suggesting is conspiracy.

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:30

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:23

I didn't mean the US there - I meant all the other countries not criticising. That would be some kind of conspiracy wouldn't it? The point I was trying to make was that in a post-USSR world, the rest of the west doesn't tend to operate in lockstep with US foreign policy so much anymore, and yet many of the west are still remaining silent on this. That's what i'm suggesting is conspiracy.

Show quote history

No, it wouldn't. The US is not the only country in the world with interests in the Middle East. I think country's governments are intelligent enough to weigh up the pros and cons of speaking out against Israel themselves without it being some kind of conspiracy theory.

Chaitales · 03/12/2023 20:33

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:00

Why do you suppose that is? Why do governments not speak out against what Israel is doing?

in my view there would be one of three possible answers:
a) there’s some intelligence they’re not sharing widely that indicates this is necessary
b) they know that if the same happened on their land they’d do the same thing
c) they’re all in conspiracy of some kind.

i think C is unlikely- the breadth of people that would need to be involved makes that virtually impossible.
a is also relatively unlikely- especially given the failure of intelligence in the 3rd Iraq war people will be unlikely to accept that explanation.
which I think leaves b as the most likely explanation- at the end of the day, what Hamas has done was SO brutal that the rest of the worlds political leaders accept that they would be doing the same thing. I also think that Israel is probably continually sharing their intelligence about which Hamas targets they’re going for to justify what they’re doing- it doesn’t seem likely that people would accept they’re just arbitrarily killing and destroying- they must be able to show that what they’re doing is pursuing legitimate military targets. So a mix of a and b really. I also think that pro-Israeli lobby groups are funding political campaigns, which I’m sure is also the same for pro-Hamas lobby groups.

Edited

It could also just be to protect their political interests to maintain a strong presence in the area. Ideally, if Israel was a peaceful presence without continuous oppression and settler colonialism, it would have been better all around for everyone, allowing Palestinians to have a home and Israel to keep a presence in the region. However Israel had no intention of letting Palestinians, in WB or Gaza, to live peacefully, leading to ongoing conflict. But Israels supporters had to keep supporting because they need to have a long term ally in the region to protect their interests (eg their continuous bombing of Syria to maintain their oil pumps) and to have a base to attack neighbouring nations if necessary.

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:35

why would the US want syria to keep pumping? The US is a net exporter of Oil - reduction in oil supply would increase the value of their exports.

Chaitales · 03/12/2023 20:37

Oops sorry @OuiOuiKitty you got there first haha I didn't notice

parksandrecs · 04/12/2023 07:05

Re: option A (and C) - let's remember the intelligence that Iraq was defintiely very near to having usable WMD 20 years ago. A huge range of seniuor political and military figures supported that, and it was used to justify the attack on Iraq.

'Intelligence' tends to find what it is looking for. And you can call it a conspiracy, or call it group-think - get a bunch of people together from a homogenous background and training, and they will tend to agree with each other, especially when the system they operate in punishes them (directly or indirectly) from speaking out.

twilightmoon3 · 04/12/2023 07:10

Hiddenmnetter · 03/12/2023 20:00

Why do you suppose that is? Why do governments not speak out against what Israel is doing?

in my view there would be one of three possible answers:
a) there’s some intelligence they’re not sharing widely that indicates this is necessary
b) they know that if the same happened on their land they’d do the same thing
c) they’re all in conspiracy of some kind.

i think C is unlikely- the breadth of people that would need to be involved makes that virtually impossible.
a is also relatively unlikely- especially given the failure of intelligence in the 3rd Iraq war people will be unlikely to accept that explanation.
which I think leaves b as the most likely explanation- at the end of the day, what Hamas has done was SO brutal that the rest of the worlds political leaders accept that they would be doing the same thing. I also think that Israel is probably continually sharing their intelligence about which Hamas targets they’re going for to justify what they’re doing- it doesn’t seem likely that people would accept they’re just arbitrarily killing and destroying- they must be able to show that what they’re doing is pursuing legitimate military targets. So a mix of a and b really. I also think that pro-Israeli lobby groups are funding political campaigns, which I’m sure is also the same for pro-Hamas lobby groups.

Edited

It's very simple..... Noam Chomsky dissects it beautifully.

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1716040149878853683

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1716040149878853683

Dulra · 04/12/2023 08:33

twilightmoon3 · 04/12/2023 07:10

It's very simple..... Noam Chomsky dissects it beautifully.

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1716040149878853683

Show quote history

Thanks for sharing. Depressing but so true. I do think as public opinion mounts in favour of the Palestinians and people are getting more and more shocked with what is coming out of Gaza the US are beginning to speak out against Israel's continuous bombardment. Kamala Harris did so at the climate summit. It needs to be remembered as was pointed out up thread that there are many many countries standing with Palestine and speaking out against Israeli actions in Gaza, but as the the video posted above of Noam Chomsky, some of these nations don't have big Global power so their voices are not as significant as the US coming out and condemning Israel.

Hiddenmnetter · 04/12/2023 08:39

twilightmoon3 · 04/12/2023 07:10

It's very simple..... Noam Chomsky dissects it beautifully.

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1716040149878853683

Show quote history

That doesn’t make sense though- Palestine has received 40bn in aid globally in the last 25 years or so, since the mid 90s or something like that. It’s not like they have no international support. In fact, per capita it’s in line with what Israel has received. Further, that doesn’t include what has been given by countries that support the various terror groups (such as Iran and Russia). Palestinians don’t have no support- they have lots of support.

Alexandra2001 · 04/12/2023 08:50

@Hiddenmnetter Israel gets a free pass because of the Holocaust, this unprecedented act of horror is still felt throughout the world and no one wants to criticise (too much) people who suffered so much.

There maybe specific regional security reasons too.