Freedom of speech you say?

[Ohlalalalala]

So it's OK for famous/ less famous people to back one side but not OK for others to back another side?

These are just a few examples of how pressures/ firings are directed at those criticising Israel. Is this normal? What the heck is happening? Is this to silence anyone from voicing what they think is the truth?

BBC News - Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

Susan Sarandon
https://deadline.com/2023/11/susan-sarandon-pro-palestinian-remarks-uta-dropped-1235632398/

Agent Maha Dakhil
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/tom-cruise-agent-maha-dakhil-palestine-b2451581.html

I would have understood if they imposed a kind of blanket gag order on all actors/ celebrities not to discuss the conflict.

But!

This is happening while hundreds of others publically supported Israel and were instead celebrated.

McCarthyite witch hunt, I say.

@noblegiraffe i don't disagree with you on many parts of your post

I was pointing out that when someone criticises the Israeli government. And the response is along the lines of well Hamas does the same then you have now put Israel and Hamas as having the same standards, when all this time the same posters would be horrified if someone else said actually Hamas and the Israeli government are both the same and would be absolutely torn in to. Why is that narrative acceptable for some arguments and not others

And yes both have flaws but it's often only those who criticise the Israeli government that are held to the expectation that they must criticise both in order for it to be a legitimate argument

That’s just bollocks.

How many posts critical of Hamas have been followed by ‘so you support the murder of children/you support genocide then?’ It’s all over this bloody topic.

I’ve just been on a thread where some posters are debating whether Hamas are as bad as they were led to believe because the hostages they took look ok. Fucksake.

@noblegiraffe

How many posts critical of Israeli govt have been followed by ‘so you support Hamas then?’ It’s all over this bloody topic.

YES. Every. Single. Thread.

Multiple times too.

100%
You cannot talk about Palestinian lives being lost or have an ounce of space on MN for the without being either trounced as Anti Semitic, hurting Jewish sentiments or pro Hamas. Ugh

Unlike the pp I wasn’t making a claim that it only went one way.

That said, if you objectively look at the thread titles in this section, it does overwhelmingly look like the section is interested in criticising one side. Even-handed it is not.

@noblegiraffe our govt is supporting Israel in its collective punishment of millions, as well as the Israeli govt are suppressing the human rights of millions. People are horrified. So the many posts expressing horror at this is not particularly surprising.

@noblegiraffe I didn't say it only went one way. I said it often does and I should add maybe i see it that way because of my own experiences.
And I see you disagree with that which is fair enough
I don't expect yourself or anyone else to agree with everything I say

And seeing as the topic is freedom of speech its a shame that so many opinions and posts on both sides are immediately dismissed, patronised and belittled
If there was an effort made for more discussion and responses which isn't always so aggressive then maybe we would find there is alot we could learn from each other.

My experience recently is, I posted an Amnesty report from 2015 documenting how Hamas tortured and murdered Palestinians and the response was 'wow that report makes Israel look bad'.

I posted above about Hamas stringing up those guys and your response was 'I think talking about Hamas like this makes Israel look bad'.

On a thread the other day a poster expressed sympathy for Hamas.

On another thread at the moment, the one set up just to slate Israel, they're starting to talk approvingly about how Hamas treated the hostages.

Plenty of horror for the actions of the Israeli government, sure, and rightly so. But in the bid to make this baddies vs goodies, there is certainly a minimisation around how terrible Hamas are that is becoming increasingly prevalent.

@noblegiraffe my point was that by counteracting criticism of Israel with criticism of Hamas it weakens the argument as it imply that both are similar in my opinion.
That was it. In any case the two situations are nowhere near remotely similar. One was about limiting freedom of speech and the other was a barbaric public lynching
That was not me defending the actions of Hamas or attempting to

@noblegiraffe my response?? you're confusing me with another poster. Not me who said that. Check back.

I agree with you hamas actions should not be minimised.

That said, truth matters in any action of war, so misinformation about either side should be challenged. Even when it relates to Hamas! And also to Israel.

I also think some posters minimising hamas or israeli actions are being deliberately provocative, and i question the motives of some, and in such cases these should be reported.

I was talking to parking about their response.

@noblegiraffe sorry was that paragraph also aimed at me as I don't know which Amnesty report you are talking about nor responding to it

No, that was another poster who took something awful Hamas did and said it made Israel look bad.

I must say that the hypocrisy, selective outrage and double standards on this thread is simply mind boggling. The irony!

I'm not even going to dignify the accusations of antisemitism with an answer.

I have been on MN for quite some time now and have always found the help of my fellow mums invaluable. Reading/ posting on the ME Board was a shock to the system though, and a very different experience.

If some pps think that by hurling accusations/ insults/ lies on anyone speaking out against the atrocities committed brazenly by Israel they will silence us, or change our perception of what's happening or make the murder of thousands of babies, children and other innocent civilians acceptable, well, they've got another think coming.

100%

Its been an eye opening experience

Bingo. I’ve read many insults even I read a comment that some of those supporting Palestine are mentally ill. I’ve lost interest in many threads because talking to some posters is like talking to a wall. Some people with opposite views to mine have been able to have a respectful conversation and many times we have agreed on things however , I do find the freedom of speech is often shut down with you’re probhamas / antisemitism and to be honest I lost interest in the conversation and proceed to report and don’t feed the troll

Out of interest, have you seen the things on here I'm talking about? The posters today saying that perhaps Hamas aren't as bad as all that? The one on another thread expressing sympathy with them? You didn't see the response to the Amnesty 2015 report about Hamas atrocities as 'wow that makes Israel look bad', did you see the poster suggesting that Jews should stick to their own section? What about the one last night who said the march against antisemitism was white supremacy?

Some jaw-droppingly awful stuff going on here at the moment.

There have been a few times when I have seen people engage in a civil discussion - it does allow you to challenge your views and thoughtfully consider another’s differing views and experiences.

It is given by all that what Hamas did on 7/10 was abhorrent- but it doesn’t seem a given to some that for many people- what the Israeli government is doing is also dreadful in many different ways too.

But then, it must be difficult to repeatedly hear criticisms of the Israeli government on SM. In the context of this, maybe the default position is to defend and minimise.

It is given by all that what Hamas did on 7/10 was abhorrent

Literally isn't.

Yep, not in the least bit a given on here

Numerous users on mumsnet that have literally said it was what Israel deserved

Many others that are dead set on only posting things that try to make Hamas actions seem reasonable

I mean a 4 year old girl returned home yesterday. She was taken after Hamas killed both her parents. Keep for 7 weeks with people she doesn't know. Yet users today are saying at least Hamas looked after the hostages well. Frankly that is some sick arse twisted logic by anyones standards

Numerous users on mumsnet that have literally said it was what Israel deserved

That they sympathise with Hamas and that Israel basically made them do it. Or they deny that Hamas did a lot of it and that Israel killed most of the victims themselves.

And yes, that they treated the hostages well

well seems like the mum of one of the child hostages as well as Israels defense correspondent agree with some of the mnes

https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1728903352514224522

https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1729185397303914672

@noblegiraffe On another thread earlier posters were taking the Aloni 'thank you' letter at face value. Hamas' useful chumps.