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Conflict in the Middle East

Freedom of speech you say?

498 replies

Ohlalalalala · 22/11/2023 17:16

So it's OK for famous/ less famous people to back one side but not OK for others to back another side?

These are just a few examples of how pressures/ firings are directed at those criticising Israel. Is this normal? What the heck is happening? Is this to silence anyone from voicing what they think is the truth?

BBC News - Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

Susan Sarandon
https://deadline.com/2023/11/susan-sarandon-pro-palestinian-remarks-uta-dropped-1235632398/

Agent Maha Dakhil
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/tom-cruise-agent-maha-dakhil-palestine-b2451581.html

I would have understood if they imposed a kind of blanket gag order on all actors/ celebrities not to discuss the conflict.

But!

This is happening while hundreds of others publically supported Israel and were instead celebrated.

McCarthyite witch hunt, I say.

Melissa Barrera at the Los Angeles premiere of "Carmen" held at the Linwood Dunn Theatre on April 20, 2023 in Los Angeles, California

Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts

Melissa Barrera is sacked from the film sequel for posts the production company say were antisemitic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
EasterIssland · 27/11/2023 23:05

Trulywonderful · 27/11/2023 23:01

Think it is just that most people have been reading your posts for weeks now

What we post paints a picture of us all. Therefore maybe they are going on that.

people have been reading your posts as well 🤷🏻‍♀️
so your initial comment about “Therefore they will likely now try and put words into your mouth or claim you have suggested things that you haven't”

also applies to me and the way some people will try to put words in your mouth that you’ve not said.

Trulywonderful · 27/11/2023 23:07

Happyvalleyfan · 27/11/2023 23:01

I haven’t seen this on MN. If I dig down into the comments/ replies on the tweets that come into my feed- and most of them are about Gaza, you get the some extreme views. However most sane people don’t say that Israel deserved 7/10.

You can’t use comments by some extremists to shut down legitimate concerns and debate.

Nobody is shutting down anybody

This is a debate is it not. Well unless mumsnet delete the thread

You are seeing what you chose to see. Most people do that it is a cognitive thing

Freedom of speech you say?
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2023 23:07

Happyvalleyfan · 27/11/2023 23:04

Sorry - are you saying that any criticism of Israeli action should be prefaced by what Hamas did was abhorrent?

No.

Happyvalleyfan · 27/11/2023 23:11

@Trulywonderful
The point I was hoping to make was that people have legitimate concerns about the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government, and it’s not right to shut down this debate by saying - well look what Hamas is doing?

Girahim · 27/11/2023 23:12

https://themessenger.com/news/hamas-publishes-letter-it-claims-israeli-hostage-danielle-alone-wrote-thanking-captors

Aloni has not confirmed its authenticity. It was unclear if she was forced to write the letter, or whether she was its actual author.

Personally I'm sceptical that a mother would of her own free will write a letter heaping praise on the people who kidnapped her and her daughter during a massacre and still hold her sister, brother in law and young nieces. But If the terrorists say its real then it must be 🙄

Danielle Aloni and her daughter Emilia

Hamas Publishes Letter It Claims Israeli Hostage Wrote Thanking Captors for 'Babysitting' Young Daughter

Hamas claims hostage Danielle Aloni wrote the letter to thank them for treating her and her daughter well in captivity.

https://themessenger.com/news/hamas-publishes-letter-it-claims-israeli-hostage-danielle-alone-wrote-thanking-captors

Trulywonderful · 27/11/2023 23:13

EasterIssland · 27/11/2023 23:05

people have been reading your posts as well 🤷🏻‍♀️
so your initial comment about “Therefore they will likely now try and put words into your mouth or claim you have suggested things that you haven't”

also applies to me and the way some people will try to put words in your mouth that you’ve not said.

Sure it could apply to yourself, much like any of us. After all this is a tactic very well used on some of these threads under the conflict board. We see it time and time again if the Hamas narrative is challenged.

However on this occasion it is the Giraffe that this is starting to happen too, not yourself. In fact it is you that seems to either not get the point or refuses to admit it. That is trying to make Giraffe seem like the unreasonable one

Trulywonderful · 27/11/2023 23:21

Happyvalleyfan · 27/11/2023 23:11

@Trulywonderful
The point I was hoping to make was that people have legitimate concerns about the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government, and it’s not right to shut down this debate by saying - well look what Hamas is doing?

It isn't a conversation about what is going on if people can't question evidence or opinions. That is what a thread is suppose to be about in most cases. The only exception tends to be the threads that require empathy for victims or various other reasons.

If you have concerns don't you want people with know of the middle east and the conflict to posts. People that may not know as much but have a more critical or logical way of thinking. These people have mostly stopped poson some of these threads because a conversation about concerns isn't happening. Some of threads are getting used as echo chambers.

That is my opinion on this anyway. No doubt you will disagree.

SpringViolet · 27/11/2023 23:50

noblegiraffe · 27/11/2023 23:01

Treating them well would have been not taking hostages, sending them home, not splitting up families, not murdering their friends and families, not handing babies over to other terrorist organisations, not still holding them as political pawns.

This is pretty basic stuff.

Quite. So they treated some hostages well. Does it occur to anyone that the released adult hostages and their families may have been told to say that knowing that the safety of the remaining hostages depends on it?

Seems a bit at odds that after a savage, brutal indiscriminate up close and personal rampage of murdering Israeli civilian men, women and children in their homes and beds and at a peace festival (!), raping women and children, beheading, cutting off breasts, burning alive, killing parents and siblings in front of children that were then actually taken hostage, that these same people then treated them very well? Giving them medicines, food, water that their own citizens didn’t have and it wasn’t their responsibility to give to them, keeping them safe?

This was a carefully calculated and planned PR war.

Commit the worst atrocities ever seen in Israel and live stream them knowing that Israel CANNOT fail to declare war, take hostages and treat them like they are their friendly relatives (after washing the blood off they were drenched in), serving the purposes of using them as human shields and as bargaining chips for ceasefires to regroup and the release of Palestinian criminals. Makes them look good to both the world and the Israelis who are relieved to have their well cared for hostages back from the friendly kidnappers and to the Palestinians for ‘freedom fighting’ and getting their citizens out of jail!

Win, Win for the terrorists. The ‘well cared for’ hostages takes away from the depravity of 7 weeks ago a bit doesn’t it? So they weren’t so bad after all?

How on earth anyone can see a context for what Hamas did on October 7th, other than deliberately provoking a war with Israel knowing full well what the casualty rate would be in Gaza (because of the human shield strategy that has long been in use there) and actively wanting that to happen for worldwide sympathy and the inevitable condemnation of Israel, is mystifying to me!

Happyvalleyfan · 28/11/2023 00:12

Trulywonderful · 27/11/2023 23:21

It isn't a conversation about what is going on if people can't question evidence or opinions. That is what a thread is suppose to be about in most cases. The only exception tends to be the threads that require empathy for victims or various other reasons.

If you have concerns don't you want people with know of the middle east and the conflict to posts. People that may not know as much but have a more critical or logical way of thinking. These people have mostly stopped poson some of these threads because a conversation about concerns isn't happening. Some of threads are getting used as echo chambers.

That is my opinion on this anyway. No doubt you will disagree.

I find it helpful in a discussion try to understand other’s perspectives and also consider evidence for and against differing opinions.

For example, if a thread is on whether Israel treats its Palestinian prisoners fairly, I would be interested to hear why people may think are the concerns around this, what the evidence for it maybe or otherwise. If there are valid concerns- how Israel came to be in a position where she felt she needed to act like this, what implications it has etc etc

It’s not particularly constructive to counter these concerns by saying well look at what Hamas does to its prisoners. That sounds like deflection and minimisation, and seems to want to shut down debate.

Trulywonderful · 28/11/2023 00:30

Happyvalleyfan · 28/11/2023 00:12

I find it helpful in a discussion try to understand other’s perspectives and also consider evidence for and against differing opinions.

For example, if a thread is on whether Israel treats its Palestinian prisoners fairly, I would be interested to hear why people may think are the concerns around this, what the evidence for it maybe or otherwise. If there are valid concerns- how Israel came to be in a position where she felt she needed to act like this, what implications it has etc etc

It’s not particularly constructive to counter these concerns by saying well look at what Hamas does to its prisoners. That sounds like deflection and minimisation, and seems to want to shut down debate.

Edited

It depends on what exactly is being spoken about at a particular point in the conversation if comment is appropriate about another topic. Sometimes if part of the conversation users are having it is very appropriate. However sometimes if a user is just spamming a post on a thread then it is not. This is a thread about freedom of speech so anything goes I presume. Then everyone is free to challenge what is posted. Whether they think it is accurate or from a reliable source. Also what they believe the narrative behind such information or posts may mean etc

Happyvalleyfan · 28/11/2023 01:04

Trulywonderful · 28/11/2023 00:30

It depends on what exactly is being spoken about at a particular point in the conversation if comment is appropriate about another topic. Sometimes if part of the conversation users are having it is very appropriate. However sometimes if a user is just spamming a post on a thread then it is not. This is a thread about freedom of speech so anything goes I presume. Then everyone is free to challenge what is posted. Whether they think it is accurate or from a reliable source. Also what they believe the narrative behind such information or posts may mean etc

This is a thread about freedom of speech, which in general allows people to say whatever they want within reason.

However the danger of not engaging in constructive dialogue is that you may as well talk to a wall, or within your own echo chamber, as you’re not going to really influence people who don’t already support your position. It also derails threads, which I think is often the goal anyway.

Luckily- it’s not stopping people continuing to raise concerns.

Trulywonderful · 28/11/2023 01:21

Happyvalleyfan · 28/11/2023 01:04

This is a thread about freedom of speech, which in general allows people to say whatever they want within reason.

However the danger of not engaging in constructive dialogue is that you may as well talk to a wall, or within your own echo chamber, as you’re not going to really influence people who don’t already support your position. It also derails threads, which I think is often the goal anyway.

Luckily- it’s not stopping people continuing to raise concerns.

That is exactly the concern raised earlier about this thread, that it was just another echo chamber. So actually you are making me smile now that you have echoed that comment but going the other way. It is like going full circle and having a I know you are but what am I conversation.

oh well night night

Parkingt111 · 28/11/2023 07:51

I agree with @Happyvalleyfan
And there does seem to be a concerted effort to shut down talk through various methods on legitimate concerns and criticism rather than engaging or putting forward opposing views.

This forum has many users. I certainly don't agree with everything people post. Not even with everything that people who support palestine post. I'm sure people have realised that views here don't fit neatly into two boxes.

When i see posts that break talk guidelines then I report them and I don't always engage with them, if others choose to then that's up to them.
When I see opposing views that seem open to discussion without leading to aggression and name calling on a topic i am interested in then I try to engage with them.

Happyvalleyfan · 28/11/2023 08:20

Trulywonderful · 28/11/2023 01:21

That is exactly the concern raised earlier about this thread, that it was just another echo chamber. So actually you are making me smile now that you have echoed that comment but going the other way. It is like going full circle and having a I know you are but what am I conversation.

oh well night night

You know- this to and fro has made me realise that freedom of speech means people can deflect, minimise and use whataboutry- but it would be a real shame actually to stop it. Better just to recognise. It’s a minimal price to pay for our freedom of expression, and it’s not afforded by all countries. I am sure Hamas would have restrictions on it, but then I don’t call them a civilised group.

I find it really depressing when Western countries try and prevent it- eg on university campuses. Thankfully our law does not support it whatever the leaders may say - at least in the UK.

Hopefully Israel will reach this point in her laws, as she does appear to be struggling with freedom of speech in the context of this war.

This is the only link I could find not behind a paywall etc, but there are a number of articles about this- and I think one was posted earlier too?

https://prospect.org/world/2023-11-10-israeli-civil-human-rights-degrade-in-war/

Israeli Civil and Human Rights Degrade in a Time of War

Many have been arrested, public demonstrations have been banned or discouraged—even social media postings have been policed.

https://prospect.org/world/2023-11-10-israeli-civil-human-rights-degrade-in-war/

queenofarles · 28/11/2023 08:22

OCt 7 was so horrific and so is everything happening ever since ,
what many fail to understand is how insulting and devaluing it is to Ask Muslims , Arabs, Christians but do you condemn Hamas?
you can’t say to a Muslim from Malaysia or an Arab from Tunisia or a Christian from Lebanon do you condemn Hamas?

The blindly raciest posts towards not just the Palestinians but towards the whole region over the last month on these threads are so dehumanising and arrogant .

I don’t think I can see things the way I saw them prior to the conflict . It is truly an awakening experience .

Happyvalleyfan · 28/11/2023 08:24

It also made me realise there’s a difference between constructive discussion and freedom
of speech, and the latter does not necessarily lead to the former.

noblegiraffe · 28/11/2023 08:43

This is fascinating. Within the last few posts someone posted Hamas-produced propaganda in an attempt to minimise the horrendous actions of Hamas and people are still continuing as if this isn’t happening and an attempt to mention this legitimate concern about what is happening to discussion on here is referred to as attempts to shut down discussion of Israel, or whataboutery.

I mean, if you can’t see it when it’s right in front of your noses…

Parkingt111 · 28/11/2023 09:14

@noblegiraffe nobody said every single concern or point.
The original post which this discussion stemmed off was limiting freedom of speech in Israel. And this was posted on a thread about freedom of speech with reputable sources.
Is that not a legitimate concern that people can discuss?

restabove · 28/11/2023 09:54

Truth matters in times of war. If that means correcting the narrative about Hamas, or Israel, so be it. Yes, propaganda exists. But not everything produced about either side is "propaganda" and to dismiss everything as such is blinkered. Each piece of evidence must be examined and verified individually.

Ohlalalalala · 28/11/2023 10:21

Weaponizing the Antisemitism Accusation

In an interview, Giovanni Fassina and Alice Garcia discuss why a controversial definition is penalizing support for Palestinian rights.

https://carnegie-mec.org/diwan/89880

Some excerpts from this fascinating interview with experts in the field:

"Yes, antisemitism is a scourge and it must be combatted, with appropriate tools. The IHRA definition of antisemitism does not offer such a tool, as hundreds of academics, including Jewish scholars specialized in Holocaust studies, antisemitism, Jewish history, and related fields, as well as hundreds of civil society organizations, including human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have confirmed. Moreover, our research shows that the definition is overwhelmingly aimed at suppressing Palestinian rights advocates in order to silence criticism of Israeli policies and practices.

First, despite having “IHRA” in its designation, the definition was not prepared by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. It was the result of a concerted effort—underway since the early 2000s—by individuals and organizations aligned with the Israeli government, to redefine antisemitism in a way that deflects and silences criticism of Israel for its human rights violations and violent repression against Palestinians. This reconceptualization of antisemitism focusing on criticism of Israel has come to be known as the “New Antisemitism” and has been documented by Antony Lerman in his 2002 book, Whatever Happened to Antisemitism? Redefinition and the Myth of the ‘Collective Jew’. Lerman is a former head of the World Jewish Congress’ Institute of Jewish Affairs.

As we have been observing, in practice these examples are used and broadly interpreted to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Jewish prejudice. Example 7, for instance, is constantly used to repress the assertion that the Israeli government commits the crime of apartheid against Palestinians, which is based on factual findings and documentation of experts, lawyers, and human rights advocates.

But more problematic is how the Israeli government, allied groups, and advocacy organizations are using the definition, with the examples included, to target Palestinian rights advocacy, in an effort to silence any criticism of Israel and therefore shield it from any accountability.

Many Jewish historians and writers also reject the IHRA definition because it conflates criticism of Israel with antisemitism, and this definition de facto harms Jewish individuals or Jewish organizations, as we have documented.
In 2021, more than 350 leading scholars on antisemitism, Holocaust Studies, and related fields rejected the IHRA definition and joined the initiative to approve an alternative definition called the Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism. In November 2022, 128 scholars specializing on antisemitism, Holocaust Studies, and related fields warned, in an open letter: “Don’t trap the United Nations in a vague and weaponized definition of antisemitism.”"

Weaponizing the Antisemitism Accusation

In an interview, Giovanni Fassina and Alice Garcia discuss why a controversial definition is penalizing support for Palestinian rights.

https://carnegie-mec.org/diwan/89880

OP posts:
Sprench · 28/11/2023 13:15

Ohlalalalala · 28/11/2023 10:21

Weaponizing the Antisemitism Accusation

In an interview, Giovanni Fassina and Alice Garcia discuss why a controversial definition is penalizing support for Palestinian rights.

https://carnegie-mec.org/diwan/89880

Some excerpts from this fascinating interview with experts in the field:

"Yes, antisemitism is a scourge and it must be combatted, with appropriate tools. The IHRA definition of antisemitism does not offer such a tool, as hundreds of academics, including Jewish scholars specialized in Holocaust studies, antisemitism, Jewish history, and related fields, as well as hundreds of civil society organizations, including human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have confirmed. Moreover, our research shows that the definition is overwhelmingly aimed at suppressing Palestinian rights advocates in order to silence criticism of Israeli policies and practices.

First, despite having “IHRA” in its designation, the definition was not prepared by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. It was the result of a concerted effort—underway since the early 2000s—by individuals and organizations aligned with the Israeli government, to redefine antisemitism in a way that deflects and silences criticism of Israel for its human rights violations and violent repression against Palestinians. This reconceptualization of antisemitism focusing on criticism of Israel has come to be known as the “New Antisemitism” and has been documented by Antony Lerman in his 2002 book, Whatever Happened to Antisemitism? Redefinition and the Myth of the ‘Collective Jew’. Lerman is a former head of the World Jewish Congress’ Institute of Jewish Affairs.

As we have been observing, in practice these examples are used and broadly interpreted to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Jewish prejudice. Example 7, for instance, is constantly used to repress the assertion that the Israeli government commits the crime of apartheid against Palestinians, which is based on factual findings and documentation of experts, lawyers, and human rights advocates.

But more problematic is how the Israeli government, allied groups, and advocacy organizations are using the definition, with the examples included, to target Palestinian rights advocacy, in an effort to silence any criticism of Israel and therefore shield it from any accountability.

Many Jewish historians and writers also reject the IHRA definition because it conflates criticism of Israel with antisemitism, and this definition de facto harms Jewish individuals or Jewish organizations, as we have documented.
In 2021, more than 350 leading scholars on antisemitism, Holocaust Studies, and related fields rejected the IHRA definition and joined the initiative to approve an alternative definition called the Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism. In November 2022, 128 scholars specializing on antisemitism, Holocaust Studies, and related fields warned, in an open letter: “Don’t trap the United Nations in a vague and weaponized definition of antisemitism.”"

To be honest I don’t think any of this holds up. The IHRA definition very clearly says that criticism of Israel may be anti-Semitic in some circumstances. It is clear to me that that is true. The way people focus such anger on Israel exclusively, the disproportionate use of sanctions by the UN, the use of tropes around money, power, secretive control etc.

The definition does not say, however, that all or most criticism is anti-Semitic.

I don’t really have time for this idea of ‘weaponising anti-semitism’. You could very easily say the same about things like everyday sexism or micro aggressions or critical race theory. But no one on the left is doing that, strangely.

noblegiraffe · 28/11/2023 13:47

restabove · 28/11/2023 09:54

Truth matters in times of war. If that means correcting the narrative about Hamas, or Israel, so be it. Yes, propaganda exists. But not everything produced about either side is "propaganda" and to dismiss everything as such is blinkered. Each piece of evidence must be examined and verified individually.

I think it’s fairly easy to read that letter, put out by Hamas being gushingly complimentary of them, supposedly written in captivity by a woman who was being held hostage with her child as propaganda!

How could you possibly think it wasn’t?

Anyway, her family are calling it propaganda and asking people not to use it to defend Hamas.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/28/news/danielle-aloni-letter-praising-hamas-is-propaganda-family/amp/

Family of freed Israeli hostage Danielle Aloni says letter praising Hamas is ‘propaganda’

Danielle Aloni and her daughter, Emilia, were released from Hamas captivity on Friday.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/28/news/danielle-aloni-letter-praising-hamas-is-propaganda-family/amp/

restabove · 28/11/2023 13:48

The way people focus such anger on Israel exclusively

False - check out the hundreds of Ukraine threads, the Iraq war protests etc. This is current event so will be more prevalent right now. Does not mean it is unbalanced. The current events are also horrifying, so no wonder people are speaking up.

The disproportionate use of sanctions

"Disproportionate" is a subjective term; it may be disproportionate in your personal view, but in the opinion of many, more sanctions are required; as people are horrified by what is going on in Palestine, lack of human rights, killing, torture, oppression, land stealing etc and the way Palestinians are treated as second class citizens.

restabove · 28/11/2023 13:50

noblegiraffe · 28/11/2023 13:47

I think it’s fairly easy to read that letter, put out by Hamas being gushingly complimentary of them, supposedly written in captivity by a woman who was being held hostage with her child as propaganda!

How could you possibly think it wasn’t?

Anyway, her family are calling it propaganda and asking people not to use it to defend Hamas.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/28/news/danielle-aloni-letter-praising-hamas-is-propaganda-family/amp/

I didn't mention the letter in my post, so please don't put words into my mouth. That is both a lie and a smear tactic.

I was stating that truth matters. Please re-read my post if you are confused, you certainly seem to be.

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