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Conflict in the Middle East

Freedom of speech you say?

498 replies

Ohlalalalala · 22/11/2023 17:16

So it's OK for famous/ less famous people to back one side but not OK for others to back another side?

These are just a few examples of how pressures/ firings are directed at those criticising Israel. Is this normal? What the heck is happening? Is this to silence anyone from voicing what they think is the truth?

BBC News - Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

Susan Sarandon
https://deadline.com/2023/11/susan-sarandon-pro-palestinian-remarks-uta-dropped-1235632398/

Agent Maha Dakhil
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/tom-cruise-agent-maha-dakhil-palestine-b2451581.html

I would have understood if they imposed a kind of blanket gag order on all actors/ celebrities not to discuss the conflict.

But!

This is happening while hundreds of others publically supported Israel and were instead celebrated.

McCarthyite witch hunt, I say.

Melissa Barrera at the Los Angeles premiere of "Carmen" held at the Linwood Dunn Theatre on April 20, 2023 in Los Angeles, California

Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts

Melissa Barrera is sacked from the film sequel for posts the production company say were antisemitic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

OP posts:
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restabove · 27/11/2023 09:26

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/an-atmosphere-of-fear-free-speech-under-threat-in-israel-activists-say

Not sure if this has been shared on here already, but thought it was interesting relating to free speech re. Palestine / Israel.

An atmosphere of fear’: free speech under threat in Israel, activists say

Jewish and Arab Israelis detained, fired from jobs and even attacked for expressing sentiments interpreted as pro-Hamas

‘An atmosphere of fear’: free speech under threat in Israel, activists say

Jewish and Arab Israelis detained, fired from jobs and even attacked for expressing sentiments interpreted as pro-Hamas

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/an-atmosphere-of-fear-free-speech-under-threat-in-israel-activists-say

restabove · 27/11/2023 09:27

From the article:

Two activists from a Jewish-Arab peace movement were recently detained in Israel for putting up posters with a message that the police deemed to be offensive. The message was: “Jews and Arabs, we will get through this together.”

The activists, members of Standing Together, had their posters confiscated, as well as T-shirts printed with peace slogans in Hebrew and Arabic.

It was not an isolated incident. Across Israel, people are being detained, fired from their jobs, and even attacked for expressing sentiments interpreted by some as showing sympathy for Hamas after the group’s murderous attack on 7 October. The definition of pro-Hamas is often widened to include expressions of sympathy for the plight of Palestinian children trapped in Gaza, or calls for peace, especially if expressed in both Arabic and Hebrew.

restabove · 27/11/2023 09:28

So calling for peace or expressing sympathy for children can get you arrested? Insanity.

noblegiraffe · 27/11/2023 09:41

And in Palestine, sympathising with Israel can get you murdered, strung upside down and then your legs cut off while crowds jeer.

Neither is acceptable.

restabove · 27/11/2023 09:42

@noblegiraffe that's awful. can you provide a link to information about this please?

restabove · 27/11/2023 09:46

Another one about freedom of speech, again if this has already been shared on this thread apologies.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/palestine-us-activism-firings-speech

Americans are being fired and facing threats for speaking out. Lawyers fear it will get worse – but they are ready to defend against the onslaught

The open letter, published in Artforum on 19 October, declared: “We support Palestinian liberation and call for an end to the killing and harming of all civilians.” It was signed by thousands of artists, scholars and cultural workers, including the art world magazine’s editor, David Velasco.

A week later, Velasco was fired from the publication he had worked at for 18 years, reportedly after pushback from Martin Eisenberg, a major arts patron and Bed Bath & Beyond heir. In a post on Artforum that evening, the magazine’s publishers said that the pro-Palestine letter, which initially did not mention Hamas’s attack that killed 1,400 Israelis, was “not consistent with Artforum’s editorial process”. At least four Artforum editors have resigned in protest against Velasco’s firing.

While sympathy for Palestine has long been a minority position in the United States, supporters are being punished for speaking out at a disturbing new level as Israel pummels Gaza, killing thousands of Palestinians in the weeks following the 7 October Hamas terror attacks.

Some, like Velasco, have lost their jobs. A Philadelphia sports writer was fired after tweeting “solidarity with Palestine” in criticism of a 76ers post that offered support to Israel after Hamas’s initial attack. In another high-profile incident, a University of California, Berkeley, professor was sacked as editor-in-chief of the scientific journal eLife after he retweeted an Onion article that, he said, “calls out indifference to the lives of Palestinian civilians”.

‘The Palestine exception’: why pro-Palestinian voices are suppressed in the US

Americans are being fired and facing threats for speaking out. Lawyers fear it will get worse – but they are ready to defend against the onslaught

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/palestine-us-activism-firings-speech

restabove · 27/11/2023 09:50

@noblegiraffe that's horrific. It pertains to spying, do you have any info about the claim you made about sympathising? Both are quite different.

noblegiraffe · 27/11/2023 09:53

I would hope you would agree that neither deserve being murdered and hung up from a pylon?

I don’t think it’s entirely clear what they did, I’ve seen various claims.

restabove · 27/11/2023 09:56

@noblegiraffe did you miss the part of my post that said "that's horrific"? Of course I condemn both, but maybe you chose to ignore that part of my post on purpose.

I just think when you make claims about sympathising then provide a link about spying it is a bit of a stretch to claim the former, as they are different.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but a reputable link would be helpful.

BelleHathor · 27/11/2023 10:00

Both those men were paid 14'000 shekels ( approximately $4000) to spy for Israel/Mossad, which allowed Israel to kill 6 Palestians.

There is video of one of them confessing and asking for forgiveness from his mother and the other is caught on CCTV.

I'm not condoning what happened but if your country is at war and you collaborate with the enemy for payment you've effectively committed treason.

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/11/2023 10:12

If Israel accused anyone of spying and tried them by kangaroo court, publicly lynched and then dismembered them in front of a baying mob all filming it, there isn't a change in hell posters would be underplaying and minimising it - the howls of outrage would be heard from space.

Parkingt111 · 27/11/2023 10:12

Can I add that I don't think this was the intention but when one counteracts a legitimate criticism of Israel with the actions of Hamas and show both do the same it's actually more harming to Israel than Hamas

Because Hamas is largely seen as a terrorist organisation and Israel a democratic state.

From an outside perspective of one who doesn't have much knowledge of the situation and reads posts like these which come from a pro Israeli stance, it gives the reader the impression that Hamas and Israel are the same or if not the same then at the least very similar

feralunderclass · 27/11/2023 10:15

auberginefortea · 27/11/2023 09:21

It's clearly anti-semitism. The posts referred to the fact that "Israel has never wanted peace" and then used vile language. Even if you take a very generous interpretation as only referring to the government of Israel, Israel has existed for 75 years, and in that time, its government has consisted of many many people of different parties, and these governments have been elected by Israeli citizens. It ends up the same - the post says the people of Israel have never wanted peace, and they are akin to rapists.

How is saying the government have never wanted peace antisemitic?! They want peace for themselves, at the cost of Palestinians. This is what is coming straight out of their mouths. No state for Palestinians.

XRAYTHIS · 27/11/2023 10:16

That's barbaric and the crowd cheered.

feralunderclass · 27/11/2023 10:19

Parkingt111 · 27/11/2023 10:12

Can I add that I don't think this was the intention but when one counteracts a legitimate criticism of Israel with the actions of Hamas and show both do the same it's actually more harming to Israel than Hamas

Because Hamas is largely seen as a terrorist organisation and Israel a democratic state.

From an outside perspective of one who doesn't have much knowledge of the situation and reads posts like these which come from a pro Israeli stance, it gives the reader the impression that Hamas and Israel are the same or if not the same then at the least very similar

Edited

Absolutely this. The same posters who accuse everyone of holding Israel to higher standards keep juxtaposing Israel with Hamas 😕

Parkingt111 · 27/11/2023 10:23

And it's more harmful when it is used to defend Israel

It's the sort of arguments that many including myself would use against Israeli government and policies

This does not hold Israel to higher standards at all.
It holds them to the same standards as Hamas.

restabove · 27/11/2023 10:24

@feralunderclass @Parkingt111 and of course we will hold Israel account while also calling out Hamas. A so called "democracy" should demonstrate democratic actions and allow human rights across the board.

Parkingt111 · 27/11/2023 11:56

Dr Ghassan Abu sittah is a British Palestinian surgeon who worked as a medic in Gaza during this war. A few days after the war started he complained how police turned up at his home in England to question and harass his family in what he sees as an attempt to silence him.

He says one of the worst days of his life was just recently when he had to leave Gaza, leaving 500 patients behind knowing there was nothing more he could do for them

He is now back in England and holding a news conference talking of his experiences as a medic in Gaza and the horrors he witnessed

In one particularly bad night he performed a total of SIX amputations and estimates that there are approximately 700-900 child limb amputations

He can now speak openly without fear of retribution. This is a short two minute clip taken from the news conference today. For those who have any experience working in health care will surely appreciate the heroic work carried out by medics in a war zone

https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1729097835231003026?t=Wo-t38sEscl-WlywgcZ4vQ&s=08

auberginefortea · 27/11/2023 13:36

feralunderclass · 27/11/2023 10:15

How is saying the government have never wanted peace antisemitic?! They want peace for themselves, at the cost of Palestinians. This is what is coming straight out of their mouths. No state for Palestinians.

As I said earlier, Israel has existed for 75 years. In that time, it has had several governments formed of many people with different views. These people have been elected by Israeli citizens.

How is it NOT antisemitic to say that Israelis have never wanted peace? That Israelis are akin to rapists?

(It seems that MN agreed with the consensus that it was antisemitic and the posts have been deleted).

Girahim · 27/11/2023 13:39

Lobster7 · 27/11/2023 08:59

People keep saying anti-semitism is on the rise and then give examples of people criticising the Israeli government as anti-semitism. It's not the same thing.

@notsoready4school ?

noblegiraffe · 27/11/2023 13:49

Parkingt111 · 27/11/2023 10:12

Can I add that I don't think this was the intention but when one counteracts a legitimate criticism of Israel with the actions of Hamas and show both do the same it's actually more harming to Israel than Hamas

Because Hamas is largely seen as a terrorist organisation and Israel a democratic state.

From an outside perspective of one who doesn't have much knowledge of the situation and reads posts like these which come from a pro Israeli stance, it gives the reader the impression that Hamas and Israel are the same or if not the same then at the least very similar

Edited

I think you mean contribute legitimate criticisms of Hamas. Both sides are committing unacceptable acts to their own people.

There are many, many threads on this section that are ‘list all the bad things Israel are doing’ and I totally disagree that it is generally accepted that Hamas is a terrorist state. There is very much the impression that Israel are the only oppressor, and free Palestine doesn’t actually require freedom from Hamas, merely Israel. If people did think that then they might put their minds a bit more to how to get rid of them. Hamas dragging hostages through a hospital - ‘oh aren’t Hamas kind to get them medical treatment’ while a teen girl is left with bullets in her leg for 50 days and another hostage is seriously ill after release. Hamas stringing up men from pylons ‘oh this is war and these things happen’

Do you think Palestinians have free speech? I think it’s a particularly under-reported area how they are themselves treated by Hamas.

Israel’s government are awful, how they are treating Palestinians are horrific. Suppression of peaceful protest is wrong.

Only criticising one side is also wrong.

restabove · 27/11/2023 14:01

@noblegiraffe It works both ways - so many "pro Israel" posters vehemently defend Israeli govt without ever criticising them or even admitting to what they do wrong. Defend, defend, defend, minimise, make excuses and smear anyone who speaks up.

Trulywonderful · 27/11/2023 14:09

noblegiraffe · 27/11/2023 13:49

I think you mean contribute legitimate criticisms of Hamas. Both sides are committing unacceptable acts to their own people.

There are many, many threads on this section that are ‘list all the bad things Israel are doing’ and I totally disagree that it is generally accepted that Hamas is a terrorist state. There is very much the impression that Israel are the only oppressor, and free Palestine doesn’t actually require freedom from Hamas, merely Israel. If people did think that then they might put their minds a bit more to how to get rid of them. Hamas dragging hostages through a hospital - ‘oh aren’t Hamas kind to get them medical treatment’ while a teen girl is left with bullets in her leg for 50 days and another hostage is seriously ill after release. Hamas stringing up men from pylons ‘oh this is war and these things happen’

Do you think Palestinians have free speech? I think it’s a particularly under-reported area how they are themselves treated by Hamas.

Israel’s government are awful, how they are treating Palestinians are horrific. Suppression of peaceful protest is wrong.

Only criticising one side is also wrong.

This

feralunderclass · 27/11/2023 14:14

auberginefortea · 27/11/2023 13:36

As I said earlier, Israel has existed for 75 years. In that time, it has had several governments formed of many people with different views. These people have been elected by Israeli citizens.

How is it NOT antisemitic to say that Israelis have never wanted peace? That Israelis are akin to rapists?

(It seems that MN agreed with the consensus that it was antisemitic and the posts have been deleted).

Edited

I made it clear I was talking about the government. I did not call Israelis rapists 🙄. If my post offended, I'm sorry. I stand by my statement that peace for Palestinians has never been in the forefront for Israel. The politicians have made that clear by their actions and their words.

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