A Textbook Case of Genocide

[Ohlalalalala]

It's been very clear from the start that Israel -through rhetoric, tactics, etc.- intended to commit the crime of genocide in Gaza.

This is so obvious now that there's absolutely no excuse to say otherwise.

Yet, shockingly, I see some posters on Mumsnet still disputing that fact, even after the best and most experienced experts in the field of genocide studies in the world confirmed it unequivocally to be so.

So, here are some links explaining in simple terms how what's been happening in Gaza is a textbook case of genocide:

A Textbook Case of Genocide
Israel has been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?

https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide

By Raz Segal, associate professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University and the endowed professor in the study of modern genocide.
(Note: this scholar is Jewish Israeli)

Here's another article in the Los Angeles Times where you can read the report of three leading Holocaust and genocide studies scholars: Victoria Sanford, Barry Trachtenberg and John Cox.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-11-19/israel-hostages-gaza-bombing-civilians-genocide-holocaust-studies

And for those who prefer it, here's an interview with Raz Segal where he explains the situation.

On the note of settlers getting away with literal murder, it was revealed the IDF were recruiting radicalised terror group Hilltop Youth to be soldiers. They set up illegal posts and basically grab land by threatening to kill or even killing Palestinians living on their own land. The really tragic thing is that Israel then legitimizes these posts and they become another settlement.

IDF turn terror group Hilltop Youth into soldiers

This "what about Hamas" deflection is simply not relevant to the majority of people who view Israel's treatment of Gaza in a negative light.

Who here has expressed the view that Hamas' actions on October 7th were acceptable or okay? That October 7th was an atrocity is not controversial. No doubt there are antisemites (Palestinians and non-Palestinians) who want to destroy/kill all Jewish people or all Israelis, and this must be an appalling and frightening reality for those on the receiving end of this hatred. But the majority of people condemning Israel do not share or support this view.

Whether or not razing Gaza and the subsequent slaughter of trapped and powerless civilians en masse is an appropriate response by Israel, apparently is controversial to many. Hence the controversial topic is that which is discussed.

I could explain it this way, from my perspective:

If Hamas were perfect saints justified in everything they do, Israel's response in Gaza would be morally abhorrent (in my opinion).

If Hamas is the most evil organisation to ever exist, completely indefensible in any way and worthy of utter annihilation, then Israel's response in Gaza is still morally abhorrent (in my opinion).

Therefore repeated discussion on the relative merits of Hamas is not particularly informative and takes us nowhere (and for what it's worth, I personally very much view Hamas through the latter of those two lenses).

To constantly deflect from the actions of the Israeli government against a civilian population by saying "but Hamas are evil, why don't you condemn them" - is simply a derailment in my view.

If my neighbour was a paedophile who abused my children, it would not make it right to burn down their house and that of their neighbours with their children inside. No amount of saying "but paedophiles are evil" changes the argument, because the premise that paedophiles aren't evil (or in this case, the premise that Hamas is not evil) is not a component of the argument that it is never acceptable to slaughter children.

If Hamas was hiding in Israel, I would likewise condemn the Israeli government if it chose to bomb its own civilians to get to Hamas. If Hamas was hiding in Finland, and Israel bombed Finland and killed Finnish children to get to Hamas, I would condemn that response too. Only I suspect that many more people would join me in that condemnation and there would be fewer willing to justify the slaughter.

Are Palestinian children so different than Israeli children or Finnish children? Are their lives worth less?

Unfortunately, there is a minority who are saying the 7 Oct attacks didn’t really happen, or that if they did, many of those who died were killed by IDF soldiers, and there are also posters who deny that the rapes and sexual attacks happened. However I certainly acknowledge that the majority of posters don’t hold those views.

I don’t see it as ‘what about Hamas’. Hamas started this latest conflict. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Hamas know Israel’s
military capability. Should Israel not respond, should it knowingly sacrifice its own soldiers in more dangerous ways of trying to root out Hamas? Perhaps it should - but surely you can understand why it doesn’t. I don’t think many are saying that Israel’s response is fine and dandy - the loss of life and the suffering is deplorable, the government is extreme and the whole situation is ghastly. Hamas has the power to do something about it, and they won’t, because it suits their purposes very well, whereas Israel has suffered a terrorist attack and has retaliated. It’s down to Hamas that they hide among civilians and prevent those civilians from leaving.

Israel is held to impossible standards while Hamas’s role is hand-waved away. Meanwhile people are slaughtered in other conflicts and
there is hardly a peep on here -people being killed in large numbers in Syria and Yemen for example, but when Israel is involved suddenly everyone wakes up and expects Israel to behave better towards the people of Gaza than its own government.

Hamas (supported by a majority of Palestinians, as surveys show) would kill all Israelis but can't do it

Israel could kill all Palestinians but absolutely won't. Imagine Russia or China in their place, you'd be counting the dead by the millions.

There is your difference, the rest is semantic bullshit, there is no genocide in Gaza, far from it

What you've described as "Israel sacrificing their soldiers" and you seem to suggest that that's unreasonable, is what war is. You say surely we should understand why they don't...the only conclusion that I can glean from that is that it's preferable to murder thousands of civilians and leave thousands more to suffer from thirst, starvation, disease and untreated injuries rather than Israel wage a war against Hamas where some of their soldiers will die. Like most other wars ever. Israeli soldiers' lives aren't worth more than those of Palestinian children. Children should never experience what Israel is doing in Palestine. No civilian population should.

How is starving and bombing a civilian population a reasonable alternative to Israel trying to actually target Hamas?

And indeed this didn't happen in a vacuum as you rightly say. It happened after decades of Israel terrorising Palestinians in the Gaza strip and stealing land and worse in the West Bank.

If it's not genocide what is it?

Trapping millions of people, denying them food, water, medicine, access to aid and hospitals whilst bombing their homes and killing thousands upon thousands of civilians.

What would you call it?

Israel is not being held to impossible standards. They are being held to the same standards as other civilised, democratic nations (and even nations that could not be considered as such) - that is to comply with internationally recognised humanitarian laws on how to conduct warfare and occupation. For example, the Geneva convention, which Israel itself ratified.

The actions of Hamas triggered this escalation, yes. So Israel is at war with Hamas. Civilians by definition are not war combatants and they are and should be subject to protections upheld by international law which civilised nations commit themselves to abide. Does Israel really want to be considered on a par with Iran, Myanmar, China, Qatar, SA, UAE or Russia? Is that the bar they set themselves?

If nations choose to ignore their responsibility to the Geneva convention and other international humanitarian agreements, then they should be condemned and sanctioned.

In fairness, I am also appalled by Western leaders similar consistent failure to condemn human rights abuses in other places (the list above contains a few).

It's just I don't hear people springing to the defence of these countries human rights records, and if I did, I'd argue with them too. To consider your example, I haven't heard people saying "the appalling loss of civilian life in Yemen is proportionate justified and necessary. Saudi Arabia and UAE are just doing what is necessary to protect themselves from Yemeni terrorists". Have you?

(Thank you for engaging respectfully)

Israel is held to impossible standards

Israel isn't even held to minimum standards, ie international law. And why is it not OK to expect Israel to "sacrifice its soldiers" but the killing of 15,000 is justified? Soldiers and civilians are not in the same category. This narrative holds Palestinian civilians to impossible standards.

@Goodnessgraciousmee thank you too for engaging respectfully.

I don’t think the life of an IDF soldier is worth more than that of a Palestinian civilian. I was thinking about whether Israel could prosecute the war differently, perhaps if they were willing to lose more soldiers on the ground, and saying I think it’s understandable that they’re not doing that. That’s the nature of war too - armies aren’t cannon fodder and if Israel is to wage war on Hamas they have to do so, somehow, within the context of a very densely populated area in which the enemy combatant is very deliberately and cynically embedded within the population. It’s an appalling situation but that is the reality.

When I mentioned impossible standards I meant that Israel is asked to do more for Palestinians than their own government, to provide aid, to keep borders open. Yes Israel certainly ought to abide by international law and yes they should
be held to the standards of a democratic country. However they are in an incredibly difficult context in which they are under constant attack and surrounded by hostile neighbours who don’t want to help the Palestinians in Gaza.

I suppose my points about the other conflicts - and I absolutely do take your point about those not being justified by commentators (although I don’t see praise for Israel killing civilians, almost everyone thinks it’s awful) - is that they are objectively less ‘justified’ than trying to destroy Hamas, and that people just don’t get as exercised when Israel is not involved.

@SussurationsWhen I mentioned impossible standards I meant that Israel is asked to do more for Palestinians than their own government, to provide aid, to keep borders open.

• *hi I just wanted to point out this bit is actually not accurate. Firstly Israel is not being asked to provide aid. The aid that has been coming in since the start of the war is from other countries/charities.

Secondly they are also not being asked to open their border with Gaza. It's the border with Egypt that's an issue. At the start of the war when Egypt wanted to open the border to allow In aid, Israel bombed it. It was part of the collective punishment of the people and the politicians also made some very extreme comments making it clear that was the intention. When they came under extreme pressure they finally conceded that life saving aid from OTHER countries could be allowed in through the EGYPTIAN border but not before placing many conditions one is that they would approve what and how much is allowed In which again became a huge obstacle in allowing sufficient aid. Its been largely criticised that the amount allowed in compared to what is needed is a drop in the ocean and how this amounts to collective punishment.

I do concede that this war brings more attention at times than others but it should be noted that unlike other wars the people of Gaza have nowhere to escape
They are trapped in Gaza by land, air and sea.
There is nowhere that is considered safe
And they are dying in thousands everywhere, in the North and the South

So for the reasons which you pointed out why Israel is being asked to do more, is actually incorrect. They haven't been asked to do anything extraordinary except abide by international law.

And the death toll again is relative. Its not just the figures but the ratio of how many casualties when compared to the amount of time this war has been going on for and the size of Gaza aswell as its population

If all these factors are taken into account then its quite apparent why alarm bells are ringing that even if its not a genocide now, there is fear it could well become one

If numerous experts and humanitarian organisations call this a genocide then it is a genocide.

It's not genocide.

When will Hamas release the rest taken on 7 Oct?

@Goodnessgraciousmee can I just add that your last posts aswell as the analogy provided was quite interesting to read

@Sussurations and can I add to that even if I disagreed with some of your points, you did articulate them well and respectfully which was also lovely to see

Good point

Maybe if posters keep saying it's not genocide without offering further explanation it will stop being genocide.

Exactly this.

I can't understand how anyone can think 7th Oct justifies this response. If you think that you mu also think the way gaza has been treated prior to Oct 7th justifies that attack. And so on. Israel have essentially been holding hostages for years for no reason, exactly like hamas but for longer.
They seem to think no laws apply yet claim to be a democratic gov. Israel is emboldened by the west and gets away with it every time.
They literally state their intentions and call Palestinians children of darkness. How anyone can see what is happening and not call it genocide is beyond reason.

Of course Oct 7 in no way justifies the Israeli response. But what is being done to ensure that, when (I hope) there is a proper ceasefire, there isn't another Oct 7 just around the corner?

@Winederlust good point and important - but equally we must ask what is being done to ensure that the violence and land grabs and oppression of human rights of all Palestinians, the imprisonment of children for trivial offences, the shooting and torture of innocent Palestinian citizens by IDF and settlers is going to be stopped?

Entirely this. I wonder why they decided to commit genocide after 7th October, not before? Forgotten something? Perhaps the rape and torture or women, the burning alive of children?

@Ibizafun 7th October is obviously awful and there is no excuse for that violence, but you omit to mention that for decades Palestinians have been subject to violence, land grabs, the oppression of their human rights, prohibited free movement, prohibited limits on trade and goods movement, the imprisonment of children for trivial offences, the shooting and torture of innocent Palestinian citizens by IDF and settlers.

This has been ongoing for many decades.

Agree.

No, Palestinians have not been subjected to anything like the depravity inflicted on the 7th. IDF do not break into Gazen homes and burn children and babies alive.

The holocaust survivor in her 80's who was paraded around Gaza was done so because there was appetite for it. Why on earth would Israel want to let these 'people' in?

The innocent Palestinians you mention in Israeli prisons are there for trying to murder Israelis. Yet the hostages in Gaza are there for.. well, whatever a 9 month old baby for example would have done.

Israel has endured years of shelling and if it wasn't for their Iron Dome there would've been a lot more death and destruction.

Israel has to wipe out Hamas's capability for future terror. It actually gives Gazens notice before bombing. What notice were the kibbutzim given? Of course it has the right to protect its borders from repeat barbarism.

@Thereissomelight

There's a great clip linked below by Noam Chomsky from a couple of years ago explaining the tactics since 2005 of Israel in Palestine here, worth a watch. It's only a couple of minutes long.

He calls the Israeli tactics "mowing the lawn".

https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/17wnn98/naom_chomsky_on_the_israeli_tactic_of_mowing_the/