Page 9 | The JC: Sacha Baron Cohen says ‘Tiktok is creating the biggest antisemitic movement since the Nazis‘

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 11:35

etmoiandme · 19/11/2023 10:35

@Parkingt111 I have a vague recollection of a rumour that that was started claiming it had been banned from being taught in Muslim schools in London by teachers who denied the holocaust - maybe about 20 years ago. But it turned out to be a big hoax and no teacher had banned it.

No I'm not talking about that rumour, that was in 2007.

Hiddenmnetter · 19/11/2023 11:36

BethDuttonsTwin · 19/11/2023 10:43

But I think to label the whole Muslim community as a source of anti-semitism would not only be incorrect but also racist.

Muslims on mass are not a race. In the most respectful way possible, can we please not start using the racism slur and just allow the discussion to progress? As it clearly doesn’t apply here.

So the difficulty is:

”you can’t tar all Muslims with the same brush”
”Muslims believe x, y or z”.

You are left with two statements that are fundamentally contradictory. Either you will sit there and analyse, one by one, the beliefs of all 1bn + Muslims in the world at any given time (given that of course as anyone can believe anything, beliefs can also change over time), or you can accept that there are some things that Muslims DO believe.

Now given that Islam doesn’t have a single central doctrinal authority (like Protestantism there are many variants) you can’t really say “all Muslims believe x, y or z”. Because as far as it goes, as many Muslims as there are, there are Muslim beliefs. However there is one thing we can point to which indicates a fairly anti-Semitic ground from which this springs:

Hamas
Islamic Jihad
ISIS
The Iranian Caliphate
Al’queda
Hezbollah

are all explicitly Islamic organisations and they are all explicitly anti-Jewish (and this is a fairly small sample). I will note that Hamas in its recent revised constitution changes the name of its target from Jews to “Zionists”, but frankly how did it know that the 1,400 it murdered on the 7th October were all ‘Zionist’ Jews (I.e.: Jews allowed to be murdered) as opposed to just Jews that shouldn’t be murdered?

Islam has a problem with anti-semitism. Even if analysis of the Koran doesn’t specifically justify it, a vast quantity of Islamic scholarship has since justified Islamic anti-semitism. Even if we can’t say that Islam is anti semitic as such, we can ask the question, very fairly, of why does Islam provide such a breeding ground for such openly and directly anti-Semitic organisations?

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 11:36

I think discussion is really good and would love to hear from Pro Israel posters that doesn't simply deflect every question with Islamophobic comments or question the mental health or faculties of someone who calls out Israel for violating human rights and illegal land grabbing.

This

All the name calling and mud slinging bores me as much as the next man. I know Pro Palestinians (like me) are guilty of it as well.

Posts like the one by Towerofsong about* Netanyahu are interesting and actually informative. The one by kiki50* and the like less so

etmoiandme · 19/11/2023 11:37

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 11:30

I don't see that teaching about the Holocaust will help anyone see Israel's actions from a different angle. You don't form a safe state for one people by oppressing another,and indoctrinating the people that the 'other' are evil (see recent and historic government speech).

I think learning about the Holocaust as the industrialised murder of 6 million Jews called The Final Solution to the Jewish Question might well explain 1) the creation of Israel as not being merely some 'settler colonialist land grab' in the Middle East which some seem to portray it as, 2) the reaction of Israel to the systematic slaughter of Israelis on 7th October by a group that has a stated intention to wipe out the Jews.

Understanding that the desire to wipe out the Jews is a long-standing aim of many people, historically and today, would also explain that Jew-hatred for many goes beyond 'legitimate criticism of Israel' and isn't simply a 'reaction to Israel's treatment of Palestinians over the years'.

Yes.

SylvanianFrenemies · 19/11/2023 11:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Here's a great example. Derailing discussions about antisemitism and creating a sense of blame that links all Jewish people to the behaviour of the Israeli government/IDF.

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 11:42

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 11:17

Of course, there is now the issue that, more than ever, Israelis will want to know they are safe and their borders secure and need a leader who can deliver that.

Surely that wouldn’t be him though since the attacks happened on his watch. He sounds like a massive liability.

Let's hope it won't be him. Nor Ben Gvir, nor Smotrich, nor Mordechai Eliyahu.....

There are an awful lot of questions to be answered about how the hell this was able to happen and why it took the army 7 hours to get there and rescue people.

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 11:53

@Towerofsong I think we could probably discuss this for hours and I'm sure there is alot we can both add that would broaden each others perspectives and maybe some that we would have to agree to disagree on so another time?
Good luck at the rally and hopefully the weather stays good

Iwantcakeeveryday · 19/11/2023 11:56

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 11:30

I don't see that teaching about the Holocaust will help anyone see Israel's actions from a different angle. You don't form a safe state for one people by oppressing another,and indoctrinating the people that the 'other' are evil (see recent and historic government speech).

I think learning about the Holocaust as the industrialised murder of 6 million Jews called The Final Solution to the Jewish Question might well explain 1) the creation of Israel as not being merely some 'settler colonialist land grab' in the Middle East which some seem to portray it as, 2) the reaction of Israel to the systematic slaughter of Israelis on 7th October by a group that has a stated intention to wipe out the Jews.

Understanding that the desire to wipe out the Jews is a long-standing aim of many people, historically and today, would also explain that Jew-hatred for many goes beyond 'legitimate criticism of Israel' and isn't simply a 'reaction to Israel's treatment of Palestinians over the years'.

A really excellent post, thank you.

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 12:07

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 11:30

I don't see that teaching about the Holocaust will help anyone see Israel's actions from a different angle. You don't form a safe state for one people by oppressing another,and indoctrinating the people that the 'other' are evil (see recent and historic government speech).

I think learning about the Holocaust as the industrialised murder of 6 million Jews called The Final Solution to the Jewish Question might well explain 1) the creation of Israel as not being merely some 'settler colonialist land grab' in the Middle East which some seem to portray it as, 2) the reaction of Israel to the systematic slaughter of Israelis on 7th October by a group that has a stated intention to wipe out the Jews.

Understanding that the desire to wipe out the Jews is a long-standing aim of many people, historically and today, would also explain that Jew-hatred for many goes beyond 'legitimate criticism of Israel' and isn't simply a 'reaction to Israel's treatment of Palestinians over the years'.

I see what you are saying, but the state of Israel as it stands is built upon the oppression of the 'other'. Jewish people from all over the world have the right to come and live in this state, to the systemic human rights violations of the Palestinians. That needs to be acknowledged in the curriculum. I think it's very myopic to say Jewish people need a homeland and not address the fact that aspects of this homeland is illegally contravening international law on many counts.

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 12:22

It was being disputed that teaching about the Holocaust would make any difference at all.

but the state of Israel as it stands is built upon the oppression of the 'other'

There were lots of new states being created in the area. Lebanon, for example, was created by the French and British in 1920. Or look at Jordan who also sought to extend its territory from the originally drawn borders.

There are a lot of places fucked up by people (usually the British) drawing lines on maps. Why blame the people currently living there?

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 12:40

There are a lot of places fucked up by people (usually the British) drawing lines on maps. Why blame the people currently living there?

The actions of the Israeli governments over the years had been rather antagonistic what with building settlements and generally viewing the Palestinians as less important than them. It’s not the fact that Israel exists more that it (the government) haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory.

I’ve had a Google of those people Towerofsong mentioned. Admittedly they are arguably extremists, and not likely to represent the views of the average person, but do you not see how having people like that in charge may cause problems? I mean the UK had people like that (UKIP and NF spring to mind) but these guys are actually in power.

AboutYouTalk · 19/11/2023 12:49

BethDuttonsTwin · 19/11/2023 10:43

But I think to label the whole Muslim community as a source of anti-semitism would not only be incorrect but also racist.

Muslims on mass are not a race. In the most respectful way possible, can we please not start using the racism slur and just allow the discussion to progress? As it clearly doesn’t apply here.

What a stupid thing to say, of course you can be racist towards Muslims because the majority of Muslims are not white. They suffer from racism and Islamophobia. The idea that only Jews are a race in the religious sense is a nonsense.

Sparklytops · 19/11/2023 12:51

backtowinter · 18/11/2023 13:55

OP he's right

See also the current tik tok trend of praising bin laden

It's quite worrying

It certainly is. Respecting terrorists, full stop, shows the mind set of these people.

Bigminnie1 · 19/11/2023 12:52

feralunderclass · 18/11/2023 16:51

Very surprised SBC is highlighting anything about antisemitism, does anyone remember him singing "throw the Jews in the well"?! He's certainly done his bit for antisemitism.

Seriously? First of all, SBC is Jewish. He's a comedian. He's well known for taking the piss. This was satire.

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 12:52

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 12:22

It was being disputed that teaching about the Holocaust would make any difference at all.

but the state of Israel as it stands is built upon the oppression of the 'other'

There were lots of new states being created in the area. Lebanon, for example, was created by the French and British in 1920. Or look at Jordan who also sought to extend its territory from the originally drawn borders.

There are a lot of places fucked up by people (usually the British) drawing lines on maps. Why blame the people currently living there?

Not remotely comparable, this is not simply about botched 'lines' /borders. That deeply minimizes the damage done. Israel, as a state for Jewish people is by definition racist. As is any place that awards a person rights/citizenship based on their race. One could argue that if the state allowed only Jewish people in and got on with things then fine, no problem there (and I think a homeland for any marginalised group is a great thing). But that isn't what has happened - the systemic racism has been the cause of great atrocities for the Palestinians. 7 million displaced worldwide, murdered, tortured, imprisoned. Denied medical care, had land/homes confiscated. This isn't something that happened just a long time ago, it's still happening. Now obviously they have the 7/10 terror attack as justification, but this behaviour is nothing new.
People say 'why can the Jewish people not live in peace' whilst completely ignoring that Israel has never let the Palestinians live in peace, in the name of Judaism. This is going to be the driver of so much further antisemitism I believe across the world. They conflate Jewish people with Israel and it's actions, even though sections of Jewish people are anti Zionist.

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 13:00

The actions of the Israeli governments over the years had been rather antagonistic what with building settlements and generally viewing the Palestinians as less important than them. It’s not the fact that Israel exists more that it (the government) haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory.

For some, it is absolutely the fact that Israel exists.

As for those who praise attacks on Israel as 'resistance against settler colonialism', what is their end goal regarding the 'settler colonists'? To make peace with them? Or to overthrow them and banish them?

I am in no way justifying the actions of Israel, which are abhorrent, but if people take issue with the creation of Israel in the first place, how can you say that it's not the fact that Israel exists?

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 13:01

Not remotely comparable, this is not simply about botched 'lines' /borders. That deeply minimizes the damage done. Israel, as a state for Jewish people is by definition racist.

And we come back to the Holocaust. Why, in the circumstances of the time, might the creation of a Jewish state might not have been considered an act of racism, some sort of Jewish supremacy thing?

Sparklytops · 19/11/2023 13:08

Reading through the board last night, somebody pointed out how much of experts people suddenly are on Gaza and Israel How they know so much about the long standing history between the two states. They also said those same people never showed interest before this latest turn of events. I thought that really summed up well why so many repetitive threads are turning up.

Those who really know their thing, talk eloquently without emotion.

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 13:34

For some, it is absolutely the fact that Israel exists.
For Hamas maybe, for the average person on MN probably not.

I am in no way justifying the actions of Israel, which are abhorrent, but if people take issue with the creation of Israel in the first place, how can you say that it's not the fact that Israel exists?
The people who took exception to the creation of Israel are the people it displaced. Of course the fact is Israel does exist and if it were to cease to exist this would only repeat the wrong.
Hamas don’t care but then they are terrorists. It’s possible the average Palestinian would be quite happy with the two state solution if it meant and end to the hostilities

With respect to the Holocaust it’s worth remembering it was the Europeans who were responsible for this but the Arabs who ended up paying the price.

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 14:07

And "From the River to the Sea" is being sung on the streets of England but never in that way even though they have been asked to stop, and a reasonable person who didn't want to be misinterpreted would have stopped by now?

With respect to the Holocaust it’s worth remembering it was the Europeans who were responsible for this but the Arabs who ended up paying the price.

Because Jews were always well-treated in the Middle East before Israel was created? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

Farhud - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

mixgoal · 19/11/2023 14:14

feralunderclass · 18/11/2023 17:40

Spewing bile? Yes I will leave the thread. I'm not embarrassed at all, just shocked. I wouldn't have ever let any pupil sing this song in the name of 'satire' .

Show quote history

Yes I will leave the thread.

Lol.

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 14:16

Because Jews were always well-treated in the Middle East before Israel was created?

I didn’t say that. With respect to the founding of Israel there were increasing hostilities in Palestine after Jewish people started going there at the end of the war. A response, as you yourself argued, to the Holocaust. That’s why the partition was suggested because the the two groups wouldn’t stop fighting.

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 14:23

With respect to the founding of Israel there were increasing hostilities in Palestine after Jewish people started going there at the end of the war.

And what about the pogrom in Baghdad in 1941 before the creation of Israel that I linked to?

You cannot blame all issues with Jews in the Middle East on the founding of Israel.

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 14:30

And what about the pogrom in Baghdad in 1941 before the creation of Israel that I linked to?

Bagdad is not in Palestine, it’s in Iraq.

You cannot blame all issues with Jews in the Middle East on the founding of Israel.

I wasn’t trying to. I was talking about the role of the Holocaust with regards to the founding of Israel as that was what we were talking about at the time.

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 14:36

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 13:00

The actions of the Israeli governments over the years had been rather antagonistic what with building settlements and generally viewing the Palestinians as less important than them. It’s not the fact that Israel exists more that it (the government) haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory.

For some, it is absolutely the fact that Israel exists.

As for those who praise attacks on Israel as 'resistance against settler colonialism', what is their end goal regarding the 'settler colonists'? To make peace with them? Or to overthrow them and banish them?

I am in no way justifying the actions of Israel, which are abhorrent, but if people take issue with the creation of Israel in the first place, how can you say that it's not the fact that Israel exists?

I don't praise any attacks, but I do wish to banish settlers from any illegal settlements. Just as the settlements were built on illegal land, they can be built elsewhere. High rises can be built. Look how many are/were living in such a small space in Gaza. No one should have the right to live anywhere to the severe detriment to others. And I don't believe that anyone that had a Jewish grandmother should be allowed to live there simply based on that. More land will be required over time until there is nothing of Palestine left. It's already hugely imbalanced as it is - Israel has approx 80% of the land for the same population as Palestinians.