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Conflict in the Middle East
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Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 09:50

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 08:56

With all due respect, as someone who is neither Jewish nor Palestinian, I think you need to educate yourself. Lecturing "us here in the UK" about "our shared values" (the government haven't been able to define 'shared values' so not sure what you are proposing?) about the "inhumane slaughter of innocent people" as if hatred is only an "imported" thing from those backward forrins. The Jewish posters will be able to tell you there's been plenty of hate from "our people". And according to international law, parts of Israel are enforced territorial capture. Please read up on the illegal settlements. However, this thread is about antisemitism so back to that.

I would like to go back to what I said about SBC. I'll not go into my opinion of him, but regarding his satire. He himself said that people internalise what you see. If any of the Jewish posters on here heard children (or adults) singing this song, would you not think it was antisemitic? From a safeguarding POV, this is considered a hate crime in school. If he'd kept his satire for the Jewish community, you can all laugh together if you think it's funny. But when someone takes this satire (which is usually full of stereotypes) into the public, where people might already hold these views, then this satire legitimizes their actions. "Oh but SBC sang this and he's Jewish, so it can't be antisemitic!" will be the cry of every person singing it. We'll not go into him satirizing Black, Muslim and Central Asians.

My ds has a physical disability, and there is a comedian with the same disability who performs satirical pieces regarding it. People with the disability can relate and find it funny. Fair enough. But when people without the disability, who have heard them start using the same terms/stereotypes for "bantz" it starts to legitimize name calling and become a not so micro aggression. If a picture of a Jewish man was drawn with horns on a synagogue or school, or anywhere, would this not be considered an act of jew hate or antisemitism? And I'll remind people that Jewish posters have called other Jewish people "antisemites" @Trulywonderful

Show quote history

Yes there is antisemitism from British people too, in fact any Jewish person will tell you that in the UK today it comes from 3 sources:

  1. The extreme far right (I would say this is very little at present)
  2. The moderate to extreme left (a lot)
  3. The Muslim community (incredibly pervasive)

Of course, 2) currently favours 3) so they march together and band together in this.

On Friday I had a maybe 20-25 year old British Muslim girl (2nd or maybe 3rd generation immigrant) telling me that of course Jews were OK (I'm pretty sure she thought that if she said that she was staying on the right side of the line) but that Israelis were Europeans who had no right ever to have set foot in Palestine in the first place and they should all get out. Had no interest in the fact that well over 50% of Israelis are from middle eastern Jewish families who were evicted to Israel, or in what she would like done about Israeli Arabs who are Druzim, Christian or Muslim who quite liked having an Israeli government and didn't want to be ruled instead by Hamas. She also avoided the question about where she thought the Israelis should go to and retreated back to mud slinging.

There is a lot of miseducation out there in some circles / communities, it is well known that teachers in schools with large Muslim populations are refraining from reaching about the holocaust because they are afraid of the response from parents.

So yes it does need to be taught and it does need to be made compulsory. I am pretty sure the majority of Muslims on the Pro-Palestinian marches would not have marched for Uyghur or Yeminite Muslims, they are marching because they believe Israelis are almost-white European colonialist settlers in what they think should be Muslim lands.

And I do have to say it is extremely rare to hear even one Muslim standing up and saying this is wrong or condemning Hamas / terrorism. I believe they are out there but it sure would be nice to hear from them. Maybe amongst themselves they denounce it but for the world they stay quiet because they won't criticise another Muslim, who knows.

Re SBC, I find him generally funny but he really goes way too close to the edge sometimes. In fact, sometimes he goes right over the edge. That is of course what satire is, but I do find it uncomfortable. But I also admire his ability to do that with a straight face. Maybe these clips should have a line at the bottom saying they are satire for those that don't understand that type of humour.

On the subject of Jewish people silencing other Jewish people or calling them antisemitic.....you can have antisemitic Jewish people just as you can have homophobic gay people. The external messages received become internalised.

But a lot of the time I think it is fear - if a Jewish person stands up and says I am Jewish but I don't like x y and z, the rest of the community fears that they are just encouraging the external antisemites. And it is true, because when Jews agree with anything that antisemites say, people say 'Oh look, even the Jews themselves admit it' and use it to give their cause more credence.

It's like if someone knows a prison officer and that officer discloses another officer was letting phones be smuggled in, that person will tell all their friends 'I know a prison officer and even they admitted that the prisons are rife with smuggling and that officers ignore it", and then when that gets to the next person it becomes 'phones and drugs are snuggled into every prison in the country, all the officers know about it, I know this on good authority because my mate is friends with a prison officer'. (apologies to any prison officers reading!). That is why Jewish people sometimes try to shut down other Jewish people.

ChalkWitch · 19/11/2023 10:05

This is going back through the thread, so apologies.
To be fair to @Reallifelurker , we don’t agree on much, but I respect the fact that when it was pointed out to you that the Jewish board is clearly not the right place for this thread, you took that on board and we’re able to see another perspective rather than doubling down.

longest sentence ever.

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 10:14

Yes I find the phrase "whataboutism" is usually used to silence debate

Yes, the first post on this thread was a post about Gaza and the second one was a rather sarcastic one saying Sasha was happy to use racial stereotypes himself.

OP challenged the first post but it was the second one that was accused of whataboutary which is interesting as, unlike the first, it was on topic

Happyvalleyfan · 19/11/2023 10:16

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 08:38

It depends what you mean by being critical of Israel

If you mean particular actions or policies of the Israeli government, then no, thats legitimate

If you are critical of Israel's existence, or dispute it's right to exist, that's antiSemitic.

To stay on the right side of the divide, you need to be specifically saying you are critical of a government policy, the government, a particular member of the government.

Not "Israel this, Israel that"

Show quote history

It will be interesting to see what follows on from Netanyahu’s right wing coalition. Hopefully most Israelis will think that their government has gone too far in their name, and will finally vote in something more moderate?
Equally it may be that Hamas’s actions will lurch Israel further to the right?

Fear for survival and land affects both Israelis and Palestinians. Let’s hope this blood shed leads to some semblance of peace and finally world leaders using diplomacy to help Palestinians find a 2 state solution that treats them fairly.

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 10:17

To be fair to @Reallifelurker , we don’t agree on much, but I respect the fact that when it was pointed out to you that the Jewish board is clearly not the right place for this thread, you took that on board and we’re able to see another perspective rather than doubling down

Yeah, like I said it was just a suggestion. If it was wrong then fair enough. * *

BethDuttonsTwin · 19/11/2023 10:18

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 09:50

Yes there is antisemitism from British people too, in fact any Jewish person will tell you that in the UK today it comes from 3 sources:

  1. The extreme far right (I would say this is very little at present)
  2. The moderate to extreme left (a lot)
  3. The Muslim community (incredibly pervasive)

Of course, 2) currently favours 3) so they march together and band together in this.

On Friday I had a maybe 20-25 year old British Muslim girl (2nd or maybe 3rd generation immigrant) telling me that of course Jews were OK (I'm pretty sure she thought that if she said that she was staying on the right side of the line) but that Israelis were Europeans who had no right ever to have set foot in Palestine in the first place and they should all get out. Had no interest in the fact that well over 50% of Israelis are from middle eastern Jewish families who were evicted to Israel, or in what she would like done about Israeli Arabs who are Druzim, Christian or Muslim who quite liked having an Israeli government and didn't want to be ruled instead by Hamas. She also avoided the question about where she thought the Israelis should go to and retreated back to mud slinging.

There is a lot of miseducation out there in some circles / communities, it is well known that teachers in schools with large Muslim populations are refraining from reaching about the holocaust because they are afraid of the response from parents.

So yes it does need to be taught and it does need to be made compulsory. I am pretty sure the majority of Muslims on the Pro-Palestinian marches would not have marched for Uyghur or Yeminite Muslims, they are marching because they believe Israelis are almost-white European colonialist settlers in what they think should be Muslim lands.

And I do have to say it is extremely rare to hear even one Muslim standing up and saying this is wrong or condemning Hamas / terrorism. I believe they are out there but it sure would be nice to hear from them. Maybe amongst themselves they denounce it but for the world they stay quiet because they won't criticise another Muslim, who knows.

Re SBC, I find him generally funny but he really goes way too close to the edge sometimes. In fact, sometimes he goes right over the edge. That is of course what satire is, but I do find it uncomfortable. But I also admire his ability to do that with a straight face. Maybe these clips should have a line at the bottom saying they are satire for those that don't understand that type of humour.

On the subject of Jewish people silencing other Jewish people or calling them antisemitic.....you can have antisemitic Jewish people just as you can have homophobic gay people. The external messages received become internalised.

But a lot of the time I think it is fear - if a Jewish person stands up and says I am Jewish but I don't like x y and z, the rest of the community fears that they are just encouraging the external antisemites. And it is true, because when Jews agree with anything that antisemites say, people say 'Oh look, even the Jews themselves admit it' and use it to give their cause more credence.

It's like if someone knows a prison officer and that officer discloses another officer was letting phones be smuggled in, that person will tell all their friends 'I know a prison officer and even they admitted that the prisons are rife with smuggling and that officers ignore it", and then when that gets to the next person it becomes 'phones and drugs are snuggled into every prison in the country, all the officers know about it, I know this on good authority because my mate is friends with a prison officer'. (apologies to any prison officers reading!). That is why Jewish people sometimes try to shut down other Jewish people.

Show quote history

Really excellent post @Towerofsong thank you x

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:23

@Towerofsong can I ask where you have heard that schools with a muslim majority are scared of teaching about the holocaust because they might offend parents? I grew up in a community that was predominantly Muslim and I went to a state school that was predominantly Muslim. We did learn about the holocaust but at a very basic level but i believe it was more due to time constraints and how poorly general history is covered in the national curriculum. The thought that this is because parents might be offended is something I am honestly hearing for the first time. Its not something I have ever heard being discussed or even hinted towards so I would be interested to know where this has taken place

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:30

@Towerofsong also another point I am not denying that there are some people who are anti semitic and are also Muslim. The same way there are some people who are anti semitic and also a part of various other religions. But I think to label the whole Muslim community as a source of anti-semitism would not only be incorrect but also racist. And unfair
I'm sure you can see why many would object to that

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 10:34

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 09:50

Yes there is antisemitism from British people too, in fact any Jewish person will tell you that in the UK today it comes from 3 sources:

  1. The extreme far right (I would say this is very little at present)
  2. The moderate to extreme left (a lot)
  3. The Muslim community (incredibly pervasive)

Of course, 2) currently favours 3) so they march together and band together in this.

On Friday I had a maybe 20-25 year old British Muslim girl (2nd or maybe 3rd generation immigrant) telling me that of course Jews were OK (I'm pretty sure she thought that if she said that she was staying on the right side of the line) but that Israelis were Europeans who had no right ever to have set foot in Palestine in the first place and they should all get out. Had no interest in the fact that well over 50% of Israelis are from middle eastern Jewish families who were evicted to Israel, or in what she would like done about Israeli Arabs who are Druzim, Christian or Muslim who quite liked having an Israeli government and didn't want to be ruled instead by Hamas. She also avoided the question about where she thought the Israelis should go to and retreated back to mud slinging.

There is a lot of miseducation out there in some circles / communities, it is well known that teachers in schools with large Muslim populations are refraining from reaching about the holocaust because they are afraid of the response from parents.

So yes it does need to be taught and it does need to be made compulsory. I am pretty sure the majority of Muslims on the Pro-Palestinian marches would not have marched for Uyghur or Yeminite Muslims, they are marching because they believe Israelis are almost-white European colonialist settlers in what they think should be Muslim lands.

And I do have to say it is extremely rare to hear even one Muslim standing up and saying this is wrong or condemning Hamas / terrorism. I believe they are out there but it sure would be nice to hear from them. Maybe amongst themselves they denounce it but for the world they stay quiet because they won't criticise another Muslim, who knows.

Re SBC, I find him generally funny but he really goes way too close to the edge sometimes. In fact, sometimes he goes right over the edge. That is of course what satire is, but I do find it uncomfortable. But I also admire his ability to do that with a straight face. Maybe these clips should have a line at the bottom saying they are satire for those that don't understand that type of humour.

On the subject of Jewish people silencing other Jewish people or calling them antisemitic.....you can have antisemitic Jewish people just as you can have homophobic gay people. The external messages received become internalised.

But a lot of the time I think it is fear - if a Jewish person stands up and says I am Jewish but I don't like x y and z, the rest of the community fears that they are just encouraging the external antisemites. And it is true, because when Jews agree with anything that antisemites say, people say 'Oh look, even the Jews themselves admit it' and use it to give their cause more credence.

It's like if someone knows a prison officer and that officer discloses another officer was letting phones be smuggled in, that person will tell all their friends 'I know a prison officer and even they admitted that the prisons are rife with smuggling and that officers ignore it", and then when that gets to the next person it becomes 'phones and drugs are snuggled into every prison in the country, all the officers know about it, I know this on good authority because my mate is friends with a prison officer'. (apologies to any prison officers reading!). That is why Jewish people sometimes try to shut down other Jewish people.

Show quote history

Unfortunately there are people who want to remain uneducated, because the truth is too painful. Whilst I believe faith schools have the right to exist, they should be compelled to teach about certain topics. A quick Google reveals that Jewish schools are the worst offenders (with some schools failing 24 out of 29 inspections). The Jewish schools have been failed for refusal to acknowledge other religions exist, refusal to talk about the monarchy, refusal to teach sexual reproduction in science. Jewish communities responded by saying Ofsted are antisemitic.

As an outsider, I am concerned that the Western world (UK in particular) appears to shift blame onto Muslims for any problems. Immigration, terrorism and now antisemitism. Regarding schools refusing to teach about the Holocaust in order "not to offend Muslims", this is a study which dispels this as a myth and a moral panic that resulted from 'Chinese whispers'. It has turned into a form of asserted 'thought assumptions', which is illustrated in your post where you posit that Muslims must be doing something because xyz and not for any other reason. This in itself is dangerous. (And I'm not saying some Muslims schools aren't teaching about it, anymore than some Jewish schools don't acknowledge other religions, but it doesn't appear to be a 'thing' in the way the Daily Mail claim).

I don't see that teaching about the Holocaust will help anyone see Israel's actions from a different angle. You don't form a safe state for one people by oppressing another,and indoctrinating the people that the 'other' are evil (see recent and historic government speech). Recent actions of Israel have showed that this goes way beyond that.

Re the silencing of Jewish voices - I fully appreciate some Jewish people might be antisemitic, as in they hate other Jews. The voices though that are being silenced are not doing this, majority are saying 'not in my name'. Regardless, it's still a "silencing". You can't say Jewish people aren't allowed a voice when you yourself have silenced other voices because they possess speech that you disapprove of.

Here

Project MUSE - Holocaust Education

https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/354/oa_edited_volume/chapter/2777952

etmoiandme · 19/11/2023 10:35

@Parkingt111 I have a vague recollection of a rumour that that was started claiming it had been banned from being taught in Muslim schools in London by teachers who denied the holocaust - maybe about 20 years ago. But it turned out to be a big hoax and no teacher had banned it.

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:36

Muslims are not all one big group that have the same views
There are approximately 3.9 million Muslims living in the UK
To say they are as a community a source of anti semitism is wrong.
If someone said one of the main sources of islamophobia in the UK was the Jewish community it would be considered (and rightly so) anti-semitic

etmoiandme · 19/11/2023 10:39

@Parkingt111 I was half-right. Not London specifically and more recent than 20 years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_teaching_hoax

Holocaust teaching hoax - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_teaching_hoax

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 10:41

@etmoiandme the paper I just posted addresses this.

BethDuttonsTwin · 19/11/2023 10:43

But I think to label the whole Muslim community as a source of anti-semitism would not only be incorrect but also racist.

Muslims on mass are not a race. In the most respectful way possible, can we please not start using the racism slur and just allow the discussion to progress? As it clearly doesn’t apply here.

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:44

@etmoiandme thank you for clarifying that.

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 10:46

BethDuttonsTwin · 19/11/2023 10:43

But I think to label the whole Muslim community as a source of anti-semitism would not only be incorrect but also racist.

Muslims on mass are not a race. In the most respectful way possible, can we please not start using the racism slur and just allow the discussion to progress? As it clearly doesn’t apply here.

You are correct, it would be Islamophobic, rather than racist. However people (incorrectly but) commonly use 'racist' to denote prejudice or 'anti' sentiment towards any group.

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:47

@BethDuttonsTwin @feralunderclass Thank you for correcting me on that
Mumsnet won't allow me to edit that post so il add it here

To do so would be islamophobic

Xenia · 19/11/2023 10:49

Tower, I agree particularly as to that 1 - 3 list of anti semites. I also agree with Parking that of course not all UK muslims are anti semitic. Just like the 99% of the UKwhich is Chrsitian (about 47%) and/or atheist (52% ) (about 65m people) there are a vast range of different people with different views. I do think some people are not being exposed to all view points and I include myself in that which is why I feel like Daniel in the lion's den on the vast vast number of anti Israel Mumsnet posts at times but keep going because I want people to see other view points and perhaps come to realise why the USA and UK support Israel and are likely to continue to do so.

However I don't think it is wrong to blame new anti semitism coming from certain groups. I was called an EDL bot the other day on MN which is very funny as presumably the EDL are the last likely supporters of Jews of almost any group in the UK (and for the record I am not an EDL bot) - it was in the context of my saying I support democracies and think they are better than theocracies and/or dictatorships like Iran and North Korea.

If there are 3.9m muslims in the UK our of our 67m population that is not a large percentage and plenty of those will not be anti semitic. There seem to be some studies eg https://www.timesofisrael.com/44-of-uk-muslims-back-anti-semitic-conspiracy-theories-poll-finds/ which I think are hopeful as they say the more integrated people are the more reasonable are their views. That is why I appreciate everyone who bothers to contribute on this topic on MN no matter what their views as I believe in freedom of speech and talking to each other.

kiki50 · 19/11/2023 11:01

talking of tik tok, i've wondered at the age of
some posters here. I can't believe that adults would espouse some of the more
ridiculous arguments seen on here. Standing shoulder to shoulder with hate groups, terror organisations, proud anti semites.

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 11:11

Happyvalleyfan · 19/11/2023 10:16

It will be interesting to see what follows on from Netanyahu’s right wing coalition. Hopefully most Israelis will think that their government has gone too far in their name, and will finally vote in something more moderate?
Equally it may be that Hamas’s actions will lurch Israel further to the right?

Fear for survival and land affects both Israelis and Palestinians. Let’s hope this blood shed leads to some semblance of peace and finally world leaders using diplomacy to help Palestinians find a 2 state solution that treats them fairly.

Edited
Show quote history

Many Israelis already thought Netanyahu had gone too far over a year ago. He has his supporters who want to see strong security for Israel and think he is the one to deliver that.
But over multiple elections in multiple years he failed to get enough of a majority to form a coalition and stay in power. He was desperate to stay in power as while he is in power he cannot be tried on corruption charges that are hanging over him.

Eventually, he formed a coalition with the most extreme right wing parties in Israel and and with the Ultra Orthodoxy by promising both of them enough of what they wanted. Which is why we are hearing extreme right wing messages from those people. He then proceeded to try to dismantle the power of the Supreme Court so they could no longer say that actions voted for by the Knesset (parliament) were unreasonable. There has been a lot of civil unrest in Israel due to this. Israeli businesses left Israel. Israelis started talking about what they would do if there was civil war.

An awful lot of Israelis - I would guesstimate AT LEAST half, wanted him gone long ago.

Of course, there is now the issue that, more than ever, Israelis will want to know they are safe and their borders secure and need a leader who can deliver that.

Reallifelurker · 19/11/2023 11:17

Of course, there is now the issue that, more than ever, Israelis will want to know they are safe and their borders secure and need a leader who can deliver that.

Surely that wouldn’t be him though since the attacks happened on his watch. He sounds like a massive liability.

feralunderclass · 19/11/2023 11:17

Xenia · 19/11/2023 10:49

Tower, I agree particularly as to that 1 - 3 list of anti semites. I also agree with Parking that of course not all UK muslims are anti semitic. Just like the 99% of the UKwhich is Chrsitian (about 47%) and/or atheist (52% ) (about 65m people) there are a vast range of different people with different views. I do think some people are not being exposed to all view points and I include myself in that which is why I feel like Daniel in the lion's den on the vast vast number of anti Israel Mumsnet posts at times but keep going because I want people to see other view points and perhaps come to realise why the USA and UK support Israel and are likely to continue to do so.

However I don't think it is wrong to blame new anti semitism coming from certain groups. I was called an EDL bot the other day on MN which is very funny as presumably the EDL are the last likely supporters of Jews of almost any group in the UK (and for the record I am not an EDL bot) - it was in the context of my saying I support democracies and think they are better than theocracies and/or dictatorships like Iran and North Korea.

If there are 3.9m muslims in the UK our of our 67m population that is not a large percentage and plenty of those will not be anti semitic. There seem to be some studies eg https://www.timesofisrael.com/44-of-uk-muslims-back-anti-semitic-conspiracy-theories-poll-finds/ which I think are hopeful as they say the more integrated people are the more reasonable are their views. That is why I appreciate everyone who bothers to contribute on this topic on MN no matter what their views as I believe in freedom of speech and talking to each other.

It was me that said you sounded like an EDL bot, and that was within the context of you being from the profession you are - you could have added a really good argument, but instead were just constantly quoting the Daily Mail. I think discussion is really good and would love to hear from Pro Israel posters that doesn't simply deflect every question with Islamophobic comments or question the mental health or faculties of someone who calls out Israel for violating human rights and illegal land grabbing.

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 11:27

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:23

@Towerofsong can I ask where you have heard that schools with a muslim majority are scared of teaching about the holocaust because they might offend parents? I grew up in a community that was predominantly Muslim and I went to a state school that was predominantly Muslim. We did learn about the holocaust but at a very basic level but i believe it was more due to time constraints and how poorly general history is covered in the national curriculum. The thought that this is because parents might be offended is something I am honestly hearing for the first time. Its not something I have ever heard being discussed or even hinted towards so I would be interested to know where this has taken place

Firstly I want to clarify that my sentence should have said 'SOME schools in areas with a Muslim majority". I wrote a long post on my phone and missed a word.

It has been reported in the media and I believe there was a study / report written on this as well. I am going out shortly but will try to dig it out. It was about teachers avoiding controversy where the history they would teach would contradict what a child was taught at home.

In fairness I was never taught about the Irish famine at school and remember being outraged when I heard about it.

If Muslims come on here and say actually they were taught about it I will be absolutely delighted to be wrong.

noblegiraffe · 19/11/2023 11:30

I don't see that teaching about the Holocaust will help anyone see Israel's actions from a different angle. You don't form a safe state for one people by oppressing another,and indoctrinating the people that the 'other' are evil (see recent and historic government speech).

I think learning about the Holocaust as the industrialised murder of 6 million Jews called The Final Solution to the Jewish Question might well explain 1) the creation of Israel as not being merely some 'settler colonialist land grab' in the Middle East which some seem to portray it as, 2) the reaction of Israel to the systematic slaughter of Israelis on 7th October by a group that has a stated intention to wipe out the Jews.

Understanding that the desire to wipe out the Jews is a long-standing aim of many people, historically and today, would also explain that Jew-hatred for many goes beyond 'legitimate criticism of Israel' and isn't simply a 'reaction to Israel's treatment of Palestinians over the years'.

Towerofsong · 19/11/2023 11:32

Parkingt111 · 19/11/2023 10:30

@Towerofsong also another point I am not denying that there are some people who are anti semitic and are also Muslim. The same way there are some people who are anti semitic and also a part of various other religions. But I think to label the whole Muslim community as a source of anti-semitism would not only be incorrect but also racist. And unfair
I'm sure you can see why many would object to that

Edited

I did not label the entire Muslim community as anti Semitic

I said a large amount of modern antisemitism comes from that direction (I am sure they believe they are just legitimately criticising Israel, but it goes beyond that)

That may be an uncomfortable truth, but it is the truth. I also said it would be great to hear from Muslims who do condemn Hamas, and that I am sure they are out there but we do not hear from them.