Israel has bombed the front of a hospital / 2

[Readingallnight]

Discussion re Israel’s bombing of hospitals, infrastructure and residential buildings

Are you referring @Stomacharmeleon to the footage of people coming into the hospital caught on cctv with one (at least) who is injured.
Thought we’d discussed that one.
No evidence they are Hamas.
IDF said cameras were covered over by Hamas and used the so called presence of sticky tape as evidence Hamas were there. So why not cover over the entrance
No evidence hostages were kept at the hospital, or any hospital so far, or school in fact……all bombed anyway.

obviously Israel’s say so is not enough. We know they fake stuff for their own ends. That has been proved by many academic analysts. They know the world knows so why not allow independent reporting.

So far
We have not seen any evidence of where hostages were being kept. Just believing one side, for me and in fact most people and Governments alike, is not enough……surely!

CCTV footage doesn't confirm your assertion at 12.12 that 'Hamas have confirmed they were there'

Hamas confirmed that a different hostage - an elderly frail Israeli hostage had been in ICU - didn't specify which hospital - un-verified

IDF have said that Noa Marciano was killed by Hamas at Al Shifa - Hamas said that she was injured in a bombardment and 'died in hospital' - neither version as been verified

To me that confirms that these 2 hostages received in-patient medical treatment not that Hamas confirmed there were hostages at al shifa for any other reason

To me that confirms that these 2 hostages received in-patient medical treatment not that Hamas confirmed there were hostages at al shifa for any other reason

There was video footage of an apparently physically uninjured man struggling and being manhandled through hospital premises. One of the people with him was holding a cleaver. It didn't suggest medical treatment.

So they confirmed hostages were in al shifa. Medical staff had always denied Hamas were there.

Nor does it suggest they were Hamas.

@Readingallnight people generally walk around with weapons to deliver the injured to hospital.
And what happened then?
No one from the hospital said ' oh we have two of the people here you are looking for?'
Nope they disappeared.
Funny that.

Yes but they are 2 different hostages not the ones @Stomacharmeleon bases her assertion that Hamas confirmed they were at al shifa

Hamas didn't confirm these people were at al shifa either

If this is not fake.

The text clearly states medical attention was sought not that the hostages were based at Al Shifa.

So it proves Hamas took hostages for medical attention….nothing more.
( Again, if they said that )

(I would expect anyone injured to receive medical attention especially as hospital were still capable of that in the early days)

You are assuming this piece of footage is real though.
Thats the problem here.
Is it real.?
Or is it a set up,

We don’t know unless the Israeli Govn and the IDF allow independent verification and the free will of the press in Gaza.

As it stands, if it’s real, hostages were attended to in the hospital.
Nothing more

You are conflating 2 different things

the 2 hostages on the CCTV
the 2 hostages said to have received hospital treatment

and deriving a completely fallacious conclusion

PS I think you say ridiculous things too - so maybe leave out the insults

Hamas didn't confirm these people were at al shifa either

Hamas aren't necessarily the most reliable source of information. I know there are questions here about the IDF too but they at least provide more receipts in the form of footage etc.

That too is questioned/called fake but at this point where do you draw a line, an insistance on a personal site visit?

Making a personal attack on a posters views is uncalled for.

Israel is also completely unreliable.
We know they provide fake information.

We need independently verified evidence.
Or an admission by the relevant parties

Here is an Israeli newspaper Haaretz 19 Nov talking about it.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-19/ty-article/israeli-army-releases-footage-of-hostages-inside-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-on-oct-7/0000018b-e93d-d36e-a3cb-f97f56bb0000

And The Times of Israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/surveillance-footage-shows-hamas-bringing-hostages-into-shifa-hospital-on-oct-7/

This footage and these reports don’t seem to prove their is a main headquarters as such here inside the hospital.

I do think Hamas is a horrific terror group though.

But @Stomacharmeleon asserts that Hamas confirmed this - so believes what they say sometimes and not others. It's not about whether Hamas or IDF is more trustworthy

And anyway this is all relatively recent - the director of al shifas cards have been marked for much longer than this - which was the original focus of discussion before her interjection

Absolutely and the arrest of medical staff is deplorable.

Here is the full IDF statement on the detention of Muhammad Abu Salmiya, the director of al-Shifa hospital:

The director of the al-Shifa hospital in the Gaza Strip was apprehended and transferred for ISA questioning following evidence showing that the al-Shifa hospital, under his direct management, served as a Hamas command and control centre. The Hamas terror tunnel network situated under the hospital also exploited electricity and resources taken from the hospital. In addition, Hamas stored numerous weapons inside the hospital and on the hospital grounds.

Furthermore, after the Hamas massacre on 7 October, Hamas terrorists sought refuge within the hospital, some of them taking hostages from Israel with them. A pathological report also confirmed the murder of CPL Noa Marciano on the hospital premises.

In the hospital, under his management, there was extensive Hamas terrorist activity. Findings of his involvement in terrorist activity will determine whether he will be subject to further ISA questioning.

The IDF also re-released the statement from Israeli military spokesperson Daniel Hagari yesterday, where he said “Now, the irrefutable truth of Hamas’ exploitation of hospitals in Gaza is on full display to the world. We have an important question to ask the international community: what will you do to stop Gaza’s hospitals from being turned into terror bases in the future? Will you condemn Hamas? Or will you continue to be silent? Will you remain silent? I want to make it clear that Israel is at war with Hamas. We are not at war with the people of Gaza.”

Hamas and medical staff within Gaza’s hospitals have repeatedly denied the Israeli accusation.

@Efacsen my disagreement is that no evidence has been provided of there being a Hamas HQ under Al shifa hospital which is what Israel has and is still saying.

The cctv footage also doesn't show the director of the hospital however was he aware about the two hostages being brought there? It's possible yes.

But does this prove that there is Hamas HQ under Al shifa hospital?

It's also been mentioned that Hamas have said themselves previously that some hostages were taken to hospitals for treatment

There's alot of un answered questions right now and not alot of clarity. That's just my own opinion and I could be wrong.

I don't think the arrest came as a surprise, it was on the script. Indonesian hospital hospital has been told to evacuate, I'm sure it's director and senior staff will be arrested in due course. Whoever isn't dead will be imprisoned.

Incontrovertible evidence now why Israel had to deal with the terrorist threat here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/galleries/article-12783721/IDF-releases-drone-footage-Hamas-terror-complex-hospital.html

Agree lots of unanswered questions and lack of clarity

To my mind not much evidence of a 'command centre' and no 'extensive network of tunnels' yet - just the underground bedsit/laptop and 2 tunnels

The weapons and ammunition do however suggest to me a Hamas presence on site but not of the extent/sophistication suggested by the cgi presentation - US have already downgraded it to a 'command and control node' in their intelligence report

And there seem to have been hostages around the hospital/compound but not on the scale that was anticipated

It's really hard to know

@Parkingt111 I think given the seismic event and the ramifications for the hospital it is naive to think the hospital director wouldn't have known either:
Any hostages were there
Two hostages were treated
So not to confuse.... either or........
any terrorists of any persuasion were there

He would have known what they would have meant for them.
Also why there? And not any other hospitals (I know you will have seen the picture) it's not the most direct:

@Stomacharmeleon valid questions and again I don't know the answers to them

My objection was does the evidence provided amount to there being a Hamas HQ under the hospital as Israel alleges. Remember all those fancy CGI pictures they showed when nothing of the sort has been found yet. Bunkers were already there from before as stated by the previous Israeli PM that Israel helped to build them.

And is the evidence provided enough for it to over rule the Geneva convention regarding hospitals being protected safe spaces?
I don't know the answer to this and will wait to see what the experts say from an independent professional body
As I don't trust Hamas or IDF's statements on it

Yes exactly the IDF statement is proof of nothing.