My question to you

[whatswrongwiththeworldddd]

If Hamas was hiding in Tel Aviv, would it be acceptable to indiscriminately bomb Tel Aviv killing 4000 children, 10000 civilians, 24 journalists and 70 UN colleagues?

If a school shooter was hiding out In a classroom, when would it ever be morally accepted to bomb the entire school?

And that one is called a terrorist organisation, the other is called a democratic modern democracy. Mad that the actions of the two are the same.

I think people's views on this conflict really do reveal who they are. I cannot imagine any right-thinking person supporting the limitless bombardment of civilians and it says a lot that our leaders are supporting them.

feral the Financial Times went in with the IDF and yes they disclosed their article had to be approved but not a single word of it was changed and that is not unchanged because the FT is pro Israel by the way.

I wouldn't try to make sense of anything that poster says, it's pointless.

Look mate, no one is saying they like Hamas.

How can anyone justify this? It’s reprehensible. The IDF and Israeli government are from the gates of hell.

People were up in arms about Lucy Letby but the hypocrisy of not feeling the same way about this is maddening.

"There are 39 infants now in the neonatal intensive care unit, one of them died moments ago and the rest are fighting death," Dr Mohammad Zaqout said.

"There are also 40 wounded in the intensive care unit, we lost one of them in the first hour of power outage.

"No one can enter or leave the Shifa hospital, therefore the injured people outside the hospital won't find a place to be treated in."

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/gaza-baby-dies-in-incubator-and-more-at-risk-as-power-runs-out-at-al-shifa-hospital-palestinian-officials-say-13005275

Some people do, although thankfully their posts don't tent to last very long, on MN at least.

@25milesfromhome the IDF?

I know, you’re so right, but I find her word salad posts oddly intriguing.

Sorry for my absence. As I said earlier, yesterday was the peace march in London. I spent the night there and am now home and catching up.

Starting PMs on the videos of the pink children’s bedroom over the workshop and the hut next door to the school.

I will say that a 3rd video circulating looks legitimate/unvarnished as far as I can tell. The shipping container on Gaza beach which IDF discovered full of explosives for rocket warheads has zero indication of anything untoward. They had their ordnance disposal team blow it up.

most verified sources are pretty sure Hamas invaded Israel and killed people. It would be quite hard to disprove that as there is a lot of separate evidence so hopefully we all agree that happened.

Yes, this event is incontestable fact. Although I’m not really comfortable with the use of the word “invade”. That is typically reserved for when one sovereign nation sends their military forces over an international border into another sovereign nation with the intent to occupy and then annex whatever land they can seize by military force. Putin in Ukraine is an invasion.

What Hamas did was launch a terrorist attack from within an Israeli occupied territory into Israel, where they massacred civilians. There is no Palestinian nation with sovreignity. They have no recognised military. There was no intent to seize Israeli land, occupy and annex it- the intent was to kill indiscriminately (keep in mind some of those killed were not Israeli and/or not Jewish), and then retreat back to Gaza with hostages.

Rebeka I agree with your analysis.
When Al Qaeda launched the twin towers attacked in the USA and killed 3000 the US justifiably in my view invaded Afghanistan to root out the enemies of democracy. All our Western democracies and indeed Israel will do that if we are attacked. Our enemies need to know this so that next time they don't attack like that.

(Most of those Hamas killed were Jewish and more jews were killed on that day than on any day since the Holocaust. It is Israel's 9/11 and Hamas is in effect ISIS).

Yes, most of the victims were Jewish, but some were international students at the music festival, and others were Arab Israelis-ie Bedouins. Hamas was not asking questions before shooting. It was a massacre.

Yes, going into Gaza to tackle Hamas, to cut the head off the terror snake, so to speak is necessary and justifiable. However, Gaza has far exceeded the statistics on bombs dropped and civilians killed that what the US did in Afghanistan in response to 9/11. We have gone a step too far in pursuit of Hamas in my view.

The government has decided to battle Hamas in a wasteland rather than to use their intelligence to send in special ops teams in orchestrated raids of arrests. Much like they are doing in the West Bank.

The interview with the IDF colonel on the video of the pink children’s bedroom is very clear- he says repeatedly now we have cleared the area, everyone here is the enemy. Cleared means a wasteland of rubble- you can see that in the video. Cleared means he thinks/has been assured that all civilians have either fled to the south or are collateral dead under the rubble. When we know for a fact that thousands of civilians are trapped in the north. IDF have been told everyone there is “the enemy” and they will be treated accordingly, they have their orders. I’m afraid that means certain death. They are only human, most of them young adults, and will trust their COs, much as I did.

Compare the fatality rate of civilians in the West Bank to Gaza- deaths under 200 with only a dozen children versus deaths over 10,000 with 5,000 children. And yet a lot more Hamas have been arrested in West Bank than killed in Gaza.

Gaza should be treated the same as the West Bank in my opinion. The concern is Gaza is a disproportionate retaliation as numerous violations of international law have occurred.

This is not good for Israel. We are quickly losing the support of allies. Many nations are calling on the ICC to issue an arrest warrant for Nethanyu- South Africa joined the calls today.

The shame, that the same court that tried the Nazis may one day be trying a Prime Minister of Israel, a Jewish leader! The antisemites will milk this for generations.

This opinion piece in the Guardian expresses much of my concern about the situation. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/11/my-life-has-been-defined-by-genocide-of-jewish-people-i-look-on-gaza-with-concern

What are you suggesting the acts of Hamas on 7/10 did not occur in a vacuum!? Some people get very upset by this ;)

on a more serious note I really liked that speech by ex French President chap. So much sense. It’s a shame politicians are only able to be that clear once they are out of office. Before that they just toe the party line which I’m really impressed Macron is not doing. Really bold move given France’s demographic

Thanks Rebeka,

The current moment must be understood with the background of decades of Israeli repression of Palestinians and denial of their basic human rights.

Israel want more and more of land in which palastein people are living, and when they are figiting back finally now Israel is suceessful in making most of palasteins homeless, no basic needs.

Hamas want their land back too!! (from settlements in west bank), For both Israel and Hamas land is more important than people.

Israel inviting all the Jews back home, that is great only when Jews in Israel take it like how we did in 'Homes for Ukraine' , Actually Israel can demad its allies (UK,USA and France etc) to do same for its Jews in every country, so all Jews in west can run 'Home for Jews' so that it would be less repression for palasteins.

But exactly what Israeli are. Israel was founded in 1948, before this it was called Palestine. Do not erase history.

Israel was founded in 1948

I wonder how they came up with the name.

So what do you think should happen to the state of Israel and the people living there?

I'm not too sure about that
I just saw this on the Haaretz, the Israeli arabs are being persecuted and these are the ones that supposedly are treated as equals according to many on here

It’s the name of our people. All Jews are descended from the twelve tribes of Israel, one for each son of Jacob. The name was meant to be a beacon telling the world that all the tribes can once again come and be together as one people instead of scattered to the four corners of the Earth.

For those who mistrust the historical accuracy of religious books like the Torah, Talmud, Bible, Quran, etc, there are many sources in addition.

The ancient Egyptians knew we called ourselves the Israelites when they conquered and ruled Canaan. They even commemorated putting down unrest against their rule when they sent their army up to defeat us and destroy our crops. The way we are reported by the Egyptians are as a people that live by subsistence farming of crops and herds with no urban city states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

After the withdrawal of the Egyptian empire in the region during the Bronze Age collapse, two Jewish kingdoms arose at the start of the Iron Age - Judea (or Judah) and Israel in Canaan. This is when an Egyptian city Ruisilum was renamed Jerusalem - and became the capital city of Judea(Judah). Israel’s capital city was Samaria. And so it was until the Babylonians came and caused the diaspora.

All Jews are descended from the twelve tribes of Israel, one for each son of Jacob.

Yes, my point was rather one of amusement that someone could ask another person not to erase history and then claim that Israel was founded in 1948 and was just Palestine before then. I mean, there's a bit more history than that.

Palestine was named this by ROMANS , on an act of anti Semetism. It was called Judea before that.
Also, Palestinian is more a nationality than an ethnicity, with the vast majority being of Jordanian extraction .
Yasser Arafat, an Egyptian was actually encouraged to go with the nomenclature "Palestine/Palestinian" to refer to both himself and the people on whose behalf he represented by the KGB.
And the MODERN state of Israel came into being in 1948. There was an Israel before. But there has never been a Palestinian state, ancient, old or in living memory. The word Palestine is not of any local language provenance as I explained above.
And Jewish people are indigenous to the area. That they are not is a fallacy created by those who are so quick to say "learn the history".
I'm kind of tired of the assumption that anybody not deemed "pro Palestinian" enough , not Jewish, not Arab knows nothing about the history of the Middle East and North Africa.
And knowing that wars have aggressors and defenders and are won when one side achieves its aim and another acknowledges that it has lost, despite many casualties does not make me an animal.
And I will not be judged by any jumped up, online no account who has so long lived without principles that it is the deaths of Gazans post October 7th that they have to use in order to guage one's character.
Fucking phonies.

Lets first talk what should happen to settlers in westbank. does state of Israel invite them 'into' state of Israel ?

How about you answer my question?