Illegal settlements

[immigrant002]

I just watched a piece on itv and sky news how Palestinians are abandoning their houses in the west bank as they face severe intimidation by settlers and army forces

The reporter says the settlements are illegal they are universally accepted as illegal so my question is why is nobody doing anything ??
What is the purpose of international law and the UN ? Is it just Israel that gets away with is ?

I just don't see what the point of saying something is illegal but continuing to build more and more settlements for people from
US kicking Palestinians out of their homes ? Why are they getting away with this ?

No you are incorrect.

Of course if you create a new state all previous paperwork is null and void and as a result all land is unsettled on. What crap.

Israel won the land through war, the land that was not already bought. Therefore the whole lot was technically Israel. The palestinians refused a two state solution so technically all the land is still Israel. Land can be owned by individuals but apparently there are unreliable or no records about some of the land in the west bank so a settler moves there and sets up a settlement and then waits for the court cases, if any, which may or may not show that the land ever had an owner.

Therefore a lot of the settlements are on a sort of loophole of the land being Israel and the land having no legal owner.

Its this ambiguity which i think has made people settle the land.

I am not an expert but this is my understanding of it.

Your understanding is completely wrong.

Even Ben Gvri (Israeli security minister, ex convicted terrorist) who lives on a settlement himself says it's stolen land but it's fine as God wants Judea and Samaria to be for the Jewish people so Palestinians just need to f*ck off elsewhere. There's no ambiguity whatsoever.

Dilbertian wrote
"Until 1948 every scrap of land settled by Jewish people was unoccupied land legitimately bought from its landlords."

This is untrue.

In 1907, Epstein, a Zionist who had witnessed the purchase of the lands of Ras al-Zawiya and al-Metulla wrote;

‘The lament of Arab women … still rings in my ears. The men rode on donkeys and the women followed them weeping bitterly, and the valley was filled with their lamentation. As they went they stopped to kiss the stones and the earth.’

The settlements are illegal and need to be dismantled.
I have yet to encounter a single pro Israeli poster who themselves have not agreed with this
Itamir ben gvir is a vile human being
You can have a look yourself at some of the things he has said
He became more prominent after Netanyahu formed a coalition with the far right
He is a despicable human

It's Ben Gvir who is directly arming settlers.
4000 assault rifles already given out and another 6000 on order.
This is a man, a senior government minister that is open about desiring genocide

He really is a terrible person, I believe he was a settler once himself

Yes he is despicable, and utterly unapologetic about it. He said the settlements will never be dismantled, and this is why Israel won't agree to a two state solution as every resolution suggested relies on dissolution of illegal settlements.

It's awful isn't it.

There are no world police, no international army. No one enforces international law, in fact lawyers often hold seminars on the question of whether it is ‘law’ at all. It’s treaties. If one country breaks a treaty, all the other countries can do is make public statements saying that is very bad, or create sanctions, or declare war. Re. Israel’s settlements in Gaza, everyone made statements agreeing it was very bad but no one was prepared to go to war over it.

What the situation does do is remind us why international laws exist. They create peace: prevent wars. Israel thought ahaha I can do these settlements and no one will stop me. That is true. But when you steal land, you create terrorists. And a certain cycle begins that was very avoidable…

Again israel is given a free pass. Their own officials have clearly stated their intention to kill Palestinians or "the animals", with huge international support, something to the effect of "kill them all, they're women and they're children". I've seen several videos of Israeli civilians chanting death to arabs Etc etc
Yet people on this forum are so quick to state hamas wants the destruction and murder of all Jews and therefore all palestinians must be punished for electing them
Haven't israel basically made their intention to commit genocide clear. Yet the pro israelis will come out with "but hamas this and hamas that"

There are settlements where a flat cost £600k and a house cost a million pounds. Look up Efrat..that's how confident people are that these settlements are suburbs of Jerusalem and they crow constantly about the amazing quality of life, the 'safe streets', the good schools, the numerous safe play areas and parks. I remember reading a haaretz article where a woman was saying how silly her friends were for not moving to settlements unlike her who moved to a settlement and manages to take 5 holidays per year with the money saved

30% are ideological and 70% are quality of life settlers. That's why they are hard to shift, so many bought their homes thinking they would never be evicted. Obviously I question their sanity but mainstream Israeli society disagrees and they think of the settlements the way Londoners think of the home counties, where people move to get a garden and space! I don't think they are moving anywhere sadly.

This also has to be framed within the context of the housing shortage in Israel proper. There is a shortage of 100k homes yearly for a country of 9 million people. To put this into context, we wail and gnash our teeth here's in the UK but our shortfall is only 340k homes for 67 million (London which has same population as Israel has shortfall of 66k homes per year!). Most of the subsidized affordable homes are in the settlements. Israel has a very similar mindset to British people, that one must aim to buy a property as a young person and only 'poor people ' rent despite it being very common in the middle classes now given average house price in Israel (not Tel aviv or central Israel) is £450k (and you need minimum 25% deposit).

So many Israelis have little choice but to move to the settlements. This does not justify it but given that the right wing government is in charge,.guess where new housing is being built?! The west bank. It is said that when left wing voters move there, they actually become right wing with time simply because of security concerns..hence why they want to double the population of Samaria, pushing out the Palestinians..

How settlements look like nowadays. They are no longer caravans with some crazy screeching religious guy.

Shameless

@lavender2023 such injustice. Palestinians seeing their ancestral homes and lands being luxuriously lived in by squatters while themselves don't even have freedom of movement. If that's not apartheid pure and simple.

Thats because they've run out of excuses

I used to think why don't they live in Tel aviv and ramat gan and jerusalem and other cities like normal people. But then I realized the scale of the housing crisis. If Mumsnet was Israeli, I am sadly sure everyone would be calling people who rent in the cities instead of buying a house in a settlement stupid. Certainly my brother in law (who lives in Israel) said I was stupid for saying I would choose a 2 bed flat in Tel Aviv over a detached 5 bed house in the west bank. Well I know what I would choose if I was Israeli given I bought a small 2 bed flat in London rather than something further out.

But would everyone here choose the same if there was a housing crisis and presented with the same options? Doubt it. I don't want to normalize settlement building, it is wrong regardless of the reasons. It is irrelevant if you settled there because of money or religion, or whether you have a swimming pool or you literally live in a wooden hut.but I am just saying how difficult it is politically for Israel to now extricate all these people (who are not that different you and I but perhaps just more greedy than the average person!)

Once again your insight is always valued on here and you write very well!
So I was wondering, most people agreed that for a two state solution to work the illegal settlements would have to be removed
It's not something that can be compromised on.
So how can this issue be tackled in your opinion? Would Israel have to relocate them inside Israel using government funding?
I'm pretty sure the settlers would prefer to live in Israel over the west bank right?

I think what may happen (and this is a distant possibility right now) is land swaps..So the more 'bourgeoise' settlements with infrastructure, fancy houses, malls, roads and bus routes will remain under Israeli control while the 'less developed' settlements may get given to the Palestinians and those settlers would have to leave. 700k people are all not leaving that's just not viable even though I understand it's maddening that some people get away with living in stolen land. I just can't imagine the Israeli government handing over places like Efrat which have buildings sponsored by American billionaires...

The Israeli government just fired 100k Palestinian construction workers, 25% of the construction industry workforce. They are going to try to replace them with 100k Indian workers. They also tried this in 2022 with Moroccan workers. This is the height of stupid. They can barely build for the current population living inside the green line (rapidly growing population), let alone the settlers. I fully expect rents to skyrocket after this war, and many more people to be forced to live in the settlements. I think though that people don't necessarily prefer to live in Israel proper. Many feel a connection with the land. Some prefer the lifestyle in the settlements, it's a small place where you know everyone and your kids can play in the street. It's like saying that people living in rural Kent would automatically prefer living in a London apartment given the chance. Most Israelis live in apartments .I think there are other rural options- like little villages up north but that's also close to Lebanon and I don't think they are as well connected as the settlements which are connected by a highway.

Re whether Israel can replace those workers, UK has been trying to recruit nurses doctors and care workers from the developing world and we still don't have enough. We are not a war zone.

@lavender2023 yes I know Israel has alot of support from India, Modi the MP of India is just about as corrupt as Netanyahu.

Land swap is a good idea, as you say it seems impossible but when Israel removed Israeli nationals from Gaza how many people left then do you know?
If it was possible to do so then, maybe it's possible to do so from the west bank too.

It's just so unfair how the Palestinians are treated in the west bank, and its often conveniently ignored. I have a friend who has family there and she said over the years it has become worse and worse and she really worries for the future

Love your posts @lavender2023 but blaming illegal settlements on a 'housing crisis' makes the settlers the victims. Of course they want luxury, one of the 'pulls' is that they are paying the same amount for a villa with swimming pool as they are for a cramped 2 bed apartment in NY. Many I met didn't even intend to live there full time, it was considered a holiday home and an investment for when they had to marry off their dc. This is why I'm against the idea of the Jewish homeland being in Israel as it is, because as more people arrive the 'housing crisis' gets worse, and of course no one gives any thought to the housing crisis of the Palestinians, on whose land these illegal settlements were built 😔.

Good point.

From June 2023

https://www.timesofisrael.com/visiting-evyatar-ben-gvir-tells-settlers-to-head-for-the-hilltops-expand-outposts/

“There needs to be a full settlement here. Not just here but on all the hilltops around us,” Ben Gvir said. “We have to settle the land of Israel and at the same time need to launch a military campaign, blow up buildings, assassinate terrorists. Not one, or two, but dozens, hundreds, or if needed, thousands.”

"The land of Israel for the Nation of Israel,” he said, employing a nativist slogan meant to promote exclusive Jewish control of the land between the Mediterranean and Jordan River.

The housing crisis doesn't make it excusable, many countries have housing crisis but in the words of a friend, I want us to build more housing but I don't want us to invade France to make this possible!

I would prefer the NY apartment to a villa in the settlement, the apartment in NY is not on occupied land. There are fewer protections under Israeli law when it comes to land in the occupied territories. And of course the locals are not going to be super happy. Bad things will inevitably happen even if your daily life feels safe, there is always risk of infiltration and violence on the road. Rabbi Leo Dee says that Efrat is safer than London/ UK but at the same time, I have never heard of anyone's wife and two daughters being shot while they were out on a day trip in England.

Many countries do manage to absorb refugees and immigrants and provide them with housing; another issue is Israel's high fertility rate and relatively long lifespan (Mediterranean food and lots of walking!) I think though they need to build higher and its a good thing to accept Jewish people fleeing persecution. I do think the many benefits and money given to Western olim from rich developed countries is a bit unnecessary. I am an immigrant and I have never accepted a penny of help from the UK and neither do most immigrants expect it. We generally only offer it to asylum seekers and thats the way it should be- financial help should only be given to those immigrants fleeing persecution.

If they love Israel, the money shouldn't be a barrier and they could just save up to move. But I do think it would probably cut down aliyah numbers considerably...It is also good for the immigrants as it would force new olim to think carefully before making the move and see whether its financially viable rather than getting a nasty shock after they arrive.