If it's all about destroying terrorist targets hidden underneath civilian areas...

[Icefoot]

Why would you bomb them? Surely the whole point of underground tunnels is that they're protected from attacks from above?

Don't Israel have some of the best special forces in the world, if it's all about removing military/terrorist hideouts, isn't there a way to do it without killing children, that's probably more effective too?

It was truly horrific to read about and listen to Israelis who had been affected by the attack by Hamas on the 7th October.

The death of children is not a zero sum game.

However- people are responding to the images of flattened areas of Palestine they are seeing on social media as well as mainstream newspapers when they call for a ceasefire.

I'm sure they do, but PP suggested the idea was ridiculous because they'd need special skills. Which they do, but I'm sure Israel thought of that a long time ago.

Well you or I wouldn’t but an army could maybe could try it? I mean, isn’t this the sort of thing army’s are for??

.. Err, yes, and that's part of the point I'm making and that's in part might be exactly what we might be seeing in some areas (Northern end of Gaza).

What I am disagreeing with is the notion that that sort of action could be completely avoided by magically sending "special forces", all on their lonesome, in to magically seal off all the tunnel entrances...that's an idea straight out of TV.

Yes and Hamas want the ethnic cleaning of all Jews from Israel too.

What I am disagreeing with is the notion that that sort of action could be avoided by magically sending "special forces", all on their lonesome, in to magically seal off all the tunnel entrances...that's an idea straight out of TV.

I never mentioned “special forces” - just think a ground invasion may be more useful than bombing. And, as I said before, if they’re bombing refugee camps and hospitals just to make life easier for them when they do go in than that’s a bit shit.

Your first point - Hamas' ability to build tunnels that can withstand every type of bombardment is actually more restricted than you think.

For one thing, they'd need even more concrete than they've had since 2007 and much deeper underground too.

The Israel Defence Force, on the other hand, has all the capability to build better bunker destroying missiles as do other militaries such as the USA who gave them some of theirs.

Your second point - Geneva Convention makes it clear that using civilians does NOT grant immunity against an attack. If you want to blame anyone for that, blame Hamas who actively put civilians in harm's way.

Yes and Hamas want the ethnic cleaning of all Jews from Israel too

Hamas are terrorist. Not the best people to compare yourself too.

... and then there was an interesting report yesterday on R4 pm (?) - not sure...

Where an Israeli mother and a Palestinian father lost their children to the ongoing violence they both said STOP.

STOP taking sides
STOP the justification for war and violence

STOP the chain reaction. Because they killed one child, ... so another child gets killed... then another child.... and so on.

I know I only heard snippets of the discussion/ conversation but the message was loud and clear! These parents are right: STOP.

Wow. So you're saying that a supposedly democratic government, supported by the US and UK is pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing?

Hamas are terrorists, government is supposed to be different.

An ICC prosecutor- using the law of the Geneva Convention- is raising concerns, as have other human rights lawyers.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-khan-kc-cairo-situation-state-palestine-and-israel

@Reallifelurker

I never mentioned “special forces” -

No I know you didn't but you queried a comment I made in a discussion about SF I was having with another poster and I may be mistaken it looked like maybe you hadn't got the full context of that particular debate..

just think a ground invasion may be more useful than bombing.

Sadly civilians are going to get killed either way.

The quickest way to render Hamas combatants ineffective and stop the fighting may well be to destroy their chain of command/ability to communicate/weapons stocks ASAP.

The quickest way to do that quite probably isn't by the IDF fighting building to building, street corner to street corner, tunnel to tunnel from one end of Gaza to the other, it may well be by attempting targeted air strikes on Hamas and their facilities.

Hi @Icefoot No, you said that, not me. :) I don't know what Israel's motivation or plan is but I do know what the Hamas goal is - it's in their manifesto.

I am not here to argue. I am just trying to have a reasonable discussion and if possible, do my best to see beneath the headlines.

Only proper to raise concerns.

But you will note he does state that civilians and civilian infrastructure can lose protection afforded under Geneva Convention. This so such groups cannot severely hobble Sovereign States in their battles against aggressors.

Precisely what I've argued.

They are bombing the tunnels because it's much easier and is low risk for Israeli soldiers compared to going in. Going in would be very difficult and they would lose a lot of soldiers. Special forces might be used for specific high-value operations but they arent going to use their special forces as cannon fodder.

This is the reality of war, casualties on the other side are not seen as hugely important. How many civilians died when the US bombed Hiroshima?

DownNative

Not exactly completely unreasonable given Hamas spent years convincing the world they had zero interest in attacking Israel.

In which parallel universe have they convinced anyone with an IQ larger than a shoe size?

I haven't said it at all, but you said "yes" to the PP who did.

EU, Israel, US and UK, for starters believed Hamas weren't interested in attacking Israel again. Intel suggested that.

Hamaa boasted of this trickery.

@keepgoingdespiteeverything
"If you lived next door to someone who constantly shot bullets through your walls, kidnapped your kids and declared they'd keep going until you were dead, chances are you'd not want to sit round a table to have a negotiation over a cup of tea. You'd want them out once and for all."

I assume this also refers to how Palestinians would feel about Israel as well. Or is just a one way street

"I doubt many MN posters have ever been to Israel or Gaza or know any Arabs, Israelis or Palestinians. I know quite a few and have spent a big chunk of time in both Israel and the West Bank."
You doubt it? I wouldn't be so sure.

"We would all benefit from loosening our grip on our firmly entrenched ideas (based 100% on what the media tells us - the media that, don't forget, makes its money from stirring up rage and fear) and actually listening to what 'the other side' says."
Like you say at the beginning of your post, most people I know didn't have entrenched views. They were sympathetic to both sides but now they are more concerned about what is happening to the Palestine civilians.
The only entrenched view turned out to be my OH who I know loves Israel from their visits and work there a few years back. When I criticised the Israeli Govt's action just 2 weeks ago, I was told to SU and FO which was pretty shocking from this person. I got a little lecture, the BBC news turned off and no more discussion. But now even my O/H is criticizing Israel and I can see it is painful for them.
I don't know where they have been getting their news from but I think the facts are speaking for themselves to them like they are to many others.

PurpleChrayne · Yesterday 23:37

Do you give this level of thought to every global conflict? Or just this one? Genuine question.

You're spamming this same whataboutery on so many threads. Wonder why you're so keen to shut down the debate?

Yes. They do. Your point?

The Israelis won't get rid of Hamas. The leaders are sitting safe in other countries like Qatar. They'll just regroup and recruit once this horror is over. Hamas is an ideology not a group of terrorists sitting in tunnels. The only way Israel can get rid of Hamas is by killing each and every Palestinian in the country which they're currently doing. It is a genocide.

"I haven't said it at all, but you said "yes" to the PP who did."

Apologies @Icefoot I mixed you up with the PP who did say it.

@flufferknutter

The Israelis won't get rid of Hamas. The leaders are sitting safe in other countries like Qatar.

And now, finally, we are into Mossad territory…..

The only way Israel can get rid of Hamas is by killing each and every Palestinian in the country which they're currently doing.

TBH even if Israel could get rid of Hamas they are then faced with dealing with Hezbollah and several other Iranian sponsored groups.

there’s much more to this than just Palestine and Hamas.

Oh wait. You weren’t making a twattish equivalency between Hamas and Palestinian civilians, were you?

I have read it again- he does not use your words but sends a clear warning out that they will investigate - whichever country- and:

“They need to demonstrate the proper application of the principles of distinction, precaution and of proportionality. And I want to be quite clear so there's no misunderstanding: In relation to every dwelling house, in relation to any school, any hospital, any church, any mosque – those places are protected, unless the protective status has been lost. And I want to be equally clear that the burden of proving that the protective status is lost rests with those who fire the gun, the missile, or the rocket in question.”

Also with regard to Israeli government impeding proper flow of humanitarian aid:

”I want to underline clearly to Israel that there must be discernible efforts, without further delay, to make sure civilians receive basic food, medicine, anaesthetics, morphine. We hear reports of operations taking place without these basic medicines, as if we're in the Middle Ages. Civilians must receive basic food and water and the desperately needed medical supplies.”

This is not a blank cheque to indiscriminately bomb and withhold aid.