If it's all about destroying terrorist targets hidden underneath civilian areas...

[Icefoot]

Why would you bomb them? Surely the whole point of underground tunnels is that they're protected from attacks from above?

Don't Israel have some of the best special forces in the world, if it's all about removing military/terrorist hideouts, isn't there a way to do it without killing children, that's probably more effective too?

But that's what special forces do. That's what they're for and Israel's are supposed to be the best.

I honestly think the plan is to just get Hamas to prevent a reoccurrence of the 7th October attacks on Israel. then leave Gaza to it, no electricity or water from Israel, no work visa’s nothing. Just a border with mines on it.

All these hypotheticals aren’t real and anyway Egypt won’t open the gates to Palestinian refugees so it’s kind of moot point.

This

ok there are something like 300 miles of tunnels. IDF will stick out like a sore thumb, the equipment required to actually take down a tunnel has to be moved through a dense city with enemy combatants in it. Whilst you are trying to collapse a tunnel people will be shooting at you or coming up from hidey holes behind you. You also have to take engineers with you with you to prevent the whole thing coming down on YOUR head while you are moving through. The reason the bombardment is so intense is precisely because it is going to be extremely difficult.

Hypothetically, if you were attacking a country with miles and miles of tunnels with combatants inside it would you not try to destroy/damage some of them before you send your own specialists (who by the way are valuable to your army because you can only train so many at a time) to limit your own casualties?

when they don’t call for a ceasefire and pressurise all sides for negotiation and peace

A ceasefire would just enable Hamas to regroup

its not the answer & that's why it's not being called for.

I genuinely do think I'd try it before obliterating an entire civilian population.

The IDF might "stick out like a sore thumb" but Mossad wouldn't.

Yes but is Mossad full of engineering and tunnel collapse specialists?

Really, is that a serious question?

Would you really? And how much military/conflict experience do you have exactly? Perhaps you should send your CV off to IDF. Or the UN. They're crying out for experts who can offer a solution to all these global conflicts without causing civilian casualties.

@Icefoot

But that's what special forces do. That's what they're for and Israel's are supposed to be the best.

I fear you have a mistaken idea of what most "Special Forces" actually are and what they can do.

Look at most variants around the world and they tend to be small in number, operate in small units, and are often used intelligence gathering or, if force is going to be used, it's very small scale but specialist stuff (e.g. The Iranian Embassy siege in London way back, intervening in airliner/ship hijackings etc).

They don't tend to get used in big battlefield type actions or it situations where you need hundreds soldiers, they simply don't have the numbers..

Clearing these tunnels is such a large job it's largely going to be "grunt" work, possibly proceeded by the use of bunker penetrating munitions.

That my point, there's no need for the "big battlefield" if they target specific points in the tunnels, if destroying the tunnels is their aim.

Regardless, it just can't be OK that they're destroying a whole population, including 100s of children. Where else has the west supported that?

Are Israel really crying out for help to solve this without civilian casualties?

I thought it was established yesterday that Hamas are still hiding above ground among civilians in eg refugee camps? How else would the 7 hostages they say were killed in the bombing have been there?

No, underground tunnels have some degree of protection but are NOT indestructible from above ground either.

They CAN be destroyed in whole or partially from missiles, depending the weapon of choice

I would imagine Hamas anticipated being bomber and designed them to withstand bombing as far as possible

This will target as many tunnels as possible before the Israel Defense Force goes in. It makes it that bit easier for them to operate in hostile enemy territory. Any remaining tunnels will be destroyed by on the ground troops.

I’m glad bombing refugee camps will make things a bit easier

I think the tunnels being underground hides them. It doesn't make them bombproof. Also the Israeli Army is going in on the ground as well so it can destroy them from the ground with better precision.

Oh and @Noorandapples - if it was in Israel the IDF would be able to go in without fearing the building was booby trapped. So that's why that would be a completely different scenario.

I mean, Hamas have even booby trapped dead bodies 🤦🏻‍♀️ They found time during the massacre to booby trap homes.

<<People don't believe or trust the Israeli Govt. They make Farage look like Ghandi This is an opinion piece but it pulls together what many people are generally thinking. They are rapidly losing public support. I suspect they don't care a bit though>*>
*
Out of curiosity, which people? The people you know or have you polled the nation? I've been in loads of different meetings recently and it's surprising how often the subject comes up. The 'people' I hear are not all on one side, they can see it from both sides.

The media has focused solely on what Israel is doing in Gaza but has mostly neglected to mention that Hamas continues to pummel Israel with rockets and most Israelis are living in lockdown and in and out of their safe rooms as rockets whistle over their heads. Nowhere is safe and just recently a terrorist stabbed a police officer in Jerusalem.

The only reason Israel is not a pile of rubble is because they have a good defence system. Gaza could have had one of those too and it also could have had a healthy economy but Hamas leaders prefer to keep the money themselves or spend it on rockets they throw at their neighbours.

Hamas has said repeatedly over and over again (for as long as they've been in power) that their goal is to keep going until Israel no longer exists. If Israel stopped tomorrow, gave in to all the demands for land this would not change. Hamas would continue to send suicide bombers and rockets and before too long probably attempt another large scale murderous invasion. Hamas wants Jerusalem and for all Jews to be dead. That's the goal.

If you lived next door to someone who constantly shot bullets through your walls, kidnapped your kids and declared they'd keep going until you were dead, chances are you'd not want to sit round a table to have a negotiation over a cup of tea. You'd want them out once and for all.

There is a great deal of misinformation and many 'buzz words' being thrown around on MN from people whose only knowledge of the conflict is what their favourite news channel has told them.

I doubt many MN posters have ever been to Israel or Gaza or know any Arabs, Israelis or Palestinians. I know quite a few and have spent a big chunk of time in both Israel and the West Bank.

We would all benefit from loosening our grip on our firmly entrenched ideas (based 100% on what the media tells us - the media that, don't forget, makes its money from stirring up rage and fear) and actually listening to what 'the other side' says.

Who is not calling for the ceasefire? The UN assembly called for a ceasefire with an overwhelming majority.
Polls are showing a majority of people across political divides in US and UK calling for a ceasefire.
Even Biden is now calling for a ‘pause’ in the conflict

I would think so. Considering it's enemy is hiding out in an extensive network of tunnels.

Yes given you think you can just chuck special forces in or Mossad. Israel have a specialist unit for tunnels (because it is actually a specialism).

As PP said, they've been facing an adversary known for their tunnels for decades, if they don't they've rather messed up.

That my point, there's no need for the "big battlefield" if they target specific points in the tunnels, if destroying the tunnels is their aim.

Even if you just want to collapse a tunnel entrance you've got to get your SF team to that entrance...in a contested area your team isn't just going to casually walk in with a couple of back packs of High Explosives and do the job and then casually wonder out of the contested area again.

If OTOH you want to collapse the main part of a well submerged bunker/tunnel (and reports are some tunnels are hundred plus plus feet down) you're not going to do that simply by using a SF team to lay down a few kilos of explosives on the surface..you'll need lorry loads of the stuff.

Fundamentally if you need to drop tunnels/bunkers at depth you either need complete control of all the terrain above it (so it's back to a battle field style attack) or use specialist air dropped munitions....

TBH I think your view of what SF can do seems to have maybe been coloured TV/Hollywood, they aren't superman or super woman...there are lots of tasks they simply aren't suited to doing.

They have specialists within the IDF, this is normal in any army.

Mossad are like MI6

Even if you just want to collapse an entrance you've got to get your SF team to that entrance...in a contested area your team isn't just going to casually walk in with a couple of back packs of High Explosives and do the job and then casually wonder out of the contested area again

Well you or I wouldn’t but an army could maybe could try it? I mean, isn’t this the sort of thing army’s are for??

I think it’s because Israel want the systematic ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip and want the Palestinian people out - either through death or mass exodus. I don’t think this is really about Hamas.