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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

gaza tunnel system

531 replies

Noicant · 28/10/2023 19:11

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

OP posts:
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ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 09:45

YankeeDad · 29/10/2023 09:25

Hamas are strategically brilliant, and Iran has used Hamas masterfully. Their core mission is to permanently destroy the state of Israel, either killing or driving away all of the Jews, and with their barbaric and large scale surprise attack against Israeli civilians, they have taken a huge stride towards accomplishing that. Hamas claim to represent people in Gaza, but actually Hamas and Iran are using people in Gaza to accomplish their own aims.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia, which were sidling towards normal relations with Israel, can or will no longer do that. Hostility by Saudi/Turkey against Israel will strengthen Hamas, and will also strengthen Iran. Western support for Israel will falter. That is exactly what Hamas wants.

Israel's leadership is obnoxious, murderous and self-centred, and overly beholden to a minority of religious zealots, but strategically the country is between a rock and a hard place and any other Israeli government would face exactly the same dilemma. They have basically two choices:

  1. Cease fire, and wait for Hamas to bring in thousands of additional rockets and other weaponry, and then do the same thing again, only worse, and and again, even worse, and then repeat again, until all Jewish Israelis are either dead or gone, or
  2. Do what they are doing now and go after Hamas and the tunnels, despite the fact that this can only be accomplished by also killing many thousands of civilians, because Hamas has installed its command centres and weapons depots underground beneath civilian infrastructure. The inevitable result is that people who already hated Israel will hate them more vehemently, Israel will also receive less consistent support from the West, and Hamas will therefore be that much closer to their ultimate goal of destroying Israel and killing or driving out all Jewish Israelis.

Israel has a stronger military, but in the long run, they cannot win, neither strategically nor in the minds and hearts of the population here in the UK. Israel is in an extremely weak position geographically, on a small and narrow strip of land, surrounded by enemies who vastly outnumber them and who will attack again and again and again. That willingness to attack was perhaps diminishing among the larger states, and I believe that is the real reason why Hamas' allies helped them to attack in this way right now. Israel's enemies only need to win once in order to forever wipe Israel and its population off the face of the earth. Israel needs to win every single time they get attacked, and they need to win while exercising enough restraint to maintain support for the next time they get attacked. That is their eternal dilemma.

For those who argue for a two state solution, with two states existing peacefully side by side, unfortunately it seems clear that Hamas will never accept that, even if Israel were to give back all of the land they have unlawfully taken. Hamas want a one state solution, with either no Jews at all, or Jews who are their subjects. They will accept nothing less.

I disagree somewhat. I think Hamas have been manipulated by Iran a fair amount and may have bitten off a lot more they can chew with this one.

Israel couldn't really care less what the majority of the world thinks about them, this is existential to them. They will never give up as they quite literally have nowhere else to go as the only Jewish state in the world.

Let's not forget they have had war declared on them more than once in their history and have won every time despite staggering odds against them. They are also a nuclear state.

Israel is going nowhere and I'd be surprised if Hamas exists in anything like its current state by the end of this latest episode.

Rubbishagain · 29/10/2023 09:48

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-fjefuBj3/?igshid=Y2NkYjk0MDhjYg==
meanwhile settlers continue to steal homes. This is unthinkable that they feel it’s ok to do this

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-fjefuBj3/?igshid=Y2NkYjk0MDhjYg==

Desertrose2023 · 29/10/2023 09:48

SharonEllis · 29/10/2023 09:04

This is horribly disrespectful to these poor children. How heartless - I would delete this. And you know full well that pictures of suffering children neither prove or disprove genocide which is a legal formulation. All sides suffer horrifically in a war. Trying to stir people up with pictures like this is manipulative & gets us nowhere.

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What’s horribly disrespectful is that these children were murdered in the first place, but I’m sorry if seeing them makes you uncomfortable.

I didn’t post the image to score points. I posted it because I have seen far too many posters on this thread and others make excuse after excuse for what Israel is currently doing with the rhetoric of ‘well it’s a shame civilians are killed but that’s what happens in war’ or ‘what choice does Israel have’, or ‘Hamas are inflating the numbers’. People need to see the horrific reality of that kind of thinking for themselves.

these are real people, real people’s children who had mothers that loved them. This is a parenting website. If images like these don’t shake people into changing their thinking then I’m not sure what will.

and for what it’s worth I am sure there are equally horrific images of Israeli children who were killed on 7 October. I don’t doubt that and I grieve for their mothers. But the sad reality is that Palestinian kids are currently dying at an exponential rate and it’s STILL happening day by day. Every day the numbers increase. This needs to stop now.

ChickenSoupAndLokshen · 29/10/2023 09:48

Spot on @YankeeDad. Unfortunately it's easy for people to decry Israel's actions but hard to come up with a viable alternative. Of course each innocent death is a tragedy for both sides but Israel is acting to buy itself time until the next lot of people try and destroy it. Because it's full of Jews.

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 09:48

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 09:45

Israel isn't carpet bombing. Carpet bombing is an outdated technique which hasn't been used for decades since the advent of precision munitions. Please try and understand what you are saying before you make such bold assertions

I’ll tell you what I do t understand - what are they actually bombing then? Hospitals that have a tunnel underneath them? If they really are billion dollar tunnels then I’m guessing Hamas made them bomb proof.

Unless you are literally sitting in the ops room doing the targeting you can't answer that question, but I'd expect they are tracking Hamas human high value targets, ammo dumps, supply depots, fighting positions in building being established for the upcoming invasion etc.

EasternStandard · 29/10/2023 09:51

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 09:45

I disagree somewhat. I think Hamas have been manipulated by Iran a fair amount and may have bitten off a lot more they can chew with this one.

Israel couldn't really care less what the majority of the world thinks about them, this is existential to them. They will never give up as they quite literally have nowhere else to go as the only Jewish state in the world.

Let's not forget they have had war declared on them more than once in their history and have won every time despite staggering odds against them. They are also a nuclear state.

Israel is going nowhere and I'd be surprised if Hamas exists in anything like its current state by the end of this latest episode.

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Although the two options sounded right in pp, I agree with this.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/10/2023 09:54

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 09:48

Unless you are literally sitting in the ops room doing the targeting you can't answer that question, but I'd expect they are tracking Hamas human high value targets, ammo dumps, supply depots, fighting positions in building being established for the upcoming invasion etc.

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Sounds reasonable - the tragedy being that Hamas have deliberately opted to place such facilities in positions where their destruction will involve killing civilians

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 09:56

Desertrose2023 · 29/10/2023 09:48

What’s horribly disrespectful is that these children were murdered in the first place, but I’m sorry if seeing them makes you uncomfortable.

I didn’t post the image to score points. I posted it because I have seen far too many posters on this thread and others make excuse after excuse for what Israel is currently doing with the rhetoric of ‘well it’s a shame civilians are killed but that’s what happens in war’ or ‘what choice does Israel have’, or ‘Hamas are inflating the numbers’. People need to see the horrific reality of that kind of thinking for themselves.

these are real people, real people’s children who had mothers that loved them. This is a parenting website. If images like these don’t shake people into changing their thinking then I’m not sure what will.

and for what it’s worth I am sure there are equally horrific images of Israeli children who were killed on 7 October. I don’t doubt that and I grieve for their mothers. But the sad reality is that Palestinian kids are currently dying at an exponential rate and it’s STILL happening day by day. Every day the numbers increase. This needs to stop now.

Show quote history

It does need to stop I agree. Do you know who could stop it rapidly with almost no more loss of life? Hamas.

Surrender, release hostages and explicitly give up their charter to wipe the state of Israel off the map, stop spending billions in international aid on weapons, rockets and tunnels and in 10 years time Gaza could be the Singapore of the med.

If Israel agrees to a ceasefire now, with things as they are, then what next exactly? Just sit and wait for the next cross border raid to target another few hundred teenagers at a music festival? Give your head a shake.

If you were in Israel's position, living next door to people who want you and your family dead and have posted videos celebrating the rape of women and children to death, I doubt you would be anywhere nearly as restrained as they are being. 🙄

regularmumnotacoolmum · 29/10/2023 09:59

How on earth can it be right to wipe out an entire nation? Shaun King, Eye on Palestine and others are showing the true extent of what is going on. This isn't about Israel's right to exist. It's about the fact that Israel has illegally occupied Palestinian land for decades and continues to expand their occupation leaving Palestinians displaced, destroyed and destitute. Imagine Wales decided to take over the majority of England, forcing people out of their homes and saying we all had to live in a random place like Swansea. The entire of England move to Swansea because Wales decided Wales isn't big enough for the Welsh people. Those who moved to Swansea from the rest of England after having been forced by Wales aren't allowed to leave Swansea. Our supplies to Swansea are rationed and controlled. We aren't allowed to work certain jobs, own land or leave the country. Would that be ok? I think not.

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 10:02

regularmumnotacoolmum · 29/10/2023 09:59

How on earth can it be right to wipe out an entire nation? Shaun King, Eye on Palestine and others are showing the true extent of what is going on. This isn't about Israel's right to exist. It's about the fact that Israel has illegally occupied Palestinian land for decades and continues to expand their occupation leaving Palestinians displaced, destroyed and destitute. Imagine Wales decided to take over the majority of England, forcing people out of their homes and saying we all had to live in a random place like Swansea. The entire of England move to Swansea because Wales decided Wales isn't big enough for the Welsh people. Those who moved to Swansea from the rest of England after having been forced by Wales aren't allowed to leave Swansea. Our supplies to Swansea are rationed and controlled. We aren't allowed to work certain jobs, own land or leave the country. Would that be ok? I think not.

Remind me again, when was the last time Israel occupied Gaza?

Desertrose2023 · 29/10/2023 10:03

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 09:56

It does need to stop I agree. Do you know who could stop it rapidly with almost no more loss of life? Hamas.

Surrender, release hostages and explicitly give up their charter to wipe the state of Israel off the map, stop spending billions in international aid on weapons, rockets and tunnels and in 10 years time Gaza could be the Singapore of the med.

If Israel agrees to a ceasefire now, with things as they are, then what next exactly? Just sit and wait for the next cross border raid to target another few hundred teenagers at a music festival? Give your head a shake.

If you were in Israel's position, living next door to people who want you and your family dead and have posted videos celebrating the rape of women and children to death, I doubt you would be anywhere nearly as restrained as they are being. 🙄

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I find it chilling that you consider what Israel is currently doing is ‘restrained’.

I’ll say it again, even laws have wars. You can’t collectively starve and dehydrate people and block their access to medicine, electricity and fuel and cut off all their communication to the outside world. There isn’t ANY justification that makes this ok. That people seem to gloss over the fact Israel is doing this is incomprehensible to me.

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 10:13

Desertrose2023 · 29/10/2023 10:03

I find it chilling that you consider what Israel is currently doing is ‘restrained’.

I’ll say it again, even laws have wars. You can’t collectively starve and dehydrate people and block their access to medicine, electricity and fuel and cut off all their communication to the outside world. There isn’t ANY justification that makes this ok. That people seem to gloss over the fact Israel is doing this is incomprehensible to me.

Edited
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Israel are doing none of those things.

Gaza has adequate fuel, it's being hoarded by Hamas for military purposes. They have medicine and water, once again it is being channeled to Hamas fighters and away from civilians.

Israel gave over 2 weeks notice for civilians to move into safer areas with more access to medicine and aid prior to their attack (a tactic that places their own troops at far greater risk, purely to try and prevent civilian deaths)

Have you any idea how hard and complex a military operation removing a terrorist group from a densely populated civilian area is? Israel are doing a good job of minimising casualties tbh. Where did you learn about military ops? The Ladybird Book of Tactics?!

Hamas have a lot to answer for in regards to things like placing their command posts in hospitals deliberately, keeping supplies from civilians in order to resupply their fighters and refusing to let civilians leave to safe areas.

I also must have missed your condemnation of Egypt, who also have closed border with Gaza and are refusing to supply them with food and water?

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 10:14

Sounds reasonable - the tragedy being that Hamas have deliberately opted to place such facilities in positions where their destruction will involve killing civilians

I doubt Hamas are deliberately planning to get civilians killed anymore than Israel is. If you bomb a densely populated area full of people (who can’t leave) then people are going to die.

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 10:15

Remind me again, when was the last time Israel occupied Gaza?

Gaza is still considered (by the UN) occupied territory due the blockade it put in place after Hamas took over.

caringcarer · 29/10/2023 10:16

blythemum · 28/10/2023 20:22

That's why they've asked everyone to move south and away from where they will bomb. There are no surprises here. Israel has been very clear that its aim is to destroy Hamas - the terrorist organisation's - infrastructure to protect itself. Hamas is preventing people from leaving. They are disgusting.

Hamas had a headquarters full of weapons under a hospital. They really don't care about Palestinian citizens even kids. When Israel was telling Palestinians to go South before they bombed the North, Hamas was telling people to stay North.

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 10:18

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 10:15

Remind me again, when was the last time Israel occupied Gaza?

Gaza is still considered (by the UN) occupied territory due the blockade it put in place after Hamas took over.

Again just to jog my memory, what happens to Israel whenever they relax the border with Gaza?

It's almost like if you were in Israel's position you might do the same, given that I doubt you would want to watch your own people being kidnapped, raped and murdered in cross border raids just because having an open border keeps the UN happy.

Original poster
Noicant · 29/10/2023 10:18

Iwasafool · 29/10/2023 09:27

The Brtish govt are supporting one and not the other.

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Hamas is proscribed as terrorist organisation in the UK. One party here may be open to negotiate at a point in the future (i.e the Israel albeit with a different government) and one will not because there core stated mission is to eradicate the other.

OP posts:
mollyfolk · 29/10/2023 10:18

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/10/2023 09:31

Everyone, I hope, agrees that Hamas are wrong but the Palestinians aren’t

In principle yes, and clearly it's wrong to make assumptions about an entire population since people aren't a hive mind

However it's difficult to ignore poll after poll which suggest that Hamas still have widespread support among Palestinians, which muddies the waters more than somewhat

It really doesn’t muddy the waters. The IRA had widespread support from nationalists during the troubles. In fact I read somewhere the majority of Sinn Fein supporters in the North still believe the violence was justified . Should they have all been killed.

it’s never ok to indiscriminately attack unarmed civilians.

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 10:19

Hamas had a headquarters full of weapons under a hospital

Which hospital? Do you know its name?

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 10:19

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 10:14

Sounds reasonable - the tragedy being that Hamas have deliberately opted to place such facilities in positions where their destruction will involve killing civilians

I doubt Hamas are deliberately planning to get civilians killed anymore than Israel is. If you bomb a densely populated area full of people (who can’t leave) then people are going to die.

Why can't they leave given that Israel has given them weeks of notice and opened safe routes for them to clearly designated areas in the south?

Who is stopping them leaving? 🤔

I think you know who.

Original poster
Noicant · 29/10/2023 10:19

Al shifa hospital apparently

OP posts:
Nicesalad · 29/10/2023 10:20

And tell me they aren't causing genocide , to thousands of Palestinian civilians
You don't "cause genocide" to individuals. Genocide means to kill most of an ethnic group (on purpose).

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 10:20

mollyfolk · 29/10/2023 10:18

It really doesn’t muddy the waters. The IRA had widespread support from nationalists during the troubles. In fact I read somewhere the majority of Sinn Fein supporters in the North still believe the violence was justified . Should they have all been killed.

it’s never ok to indiscriminately attack unarmed civilians.

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Who is indiscriminately attacking civilians? That's a bold claim that I assume you can evidence?

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 10:21

Why can't they leave given that Israel has given them weeks of notice and opened safe routes for them to clearly designated areas in the south?

Who is stopping them leaving? 🤔

I think you know who.m

I meant they can’t leave Gaza (unless Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing but I bet it hasn’t)

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