gaza tunnel system

[Noicant]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

I haven’t read the article as not registered but I recall a freed hostage talking about a labyrinth of tunnels like a spider’s web

Because they care about human beings going through some of the worst atrocities possible?

Did people go into such obsessive detail about Al Qaeda's methods and modus operandi? Why the fixation with this particular crisis? There are threads upon threads about it. A whole section about it.

It's like the world has been waiting for a chance to jump on Israel.

The initiation of information dissemination often stems from mainstream media. In instances where mainstream media maintains complete silence on a particular topic, access to pertinent information is restricted to a select audience, typically those with a need-to-know basis.

I actually did, I used to read reports from the “institute for the study of war” about Isis and troop movements (I had a small baby at the time so couldn’t read as much as I would like). I still read the odd article about Afghanistan (theres a conflict between Isis and the taliban and disagreement within the taliban too).

My present interest in this isn’t out of character at all tbh.

Almost everyone opposed Al Qaeda/ISIS/Russia invasions.

Here, our governments and media are actively promoting genocide, esp in America where taxpayer money is funding an overseas war. People are bound to, and should, speak up.

There's extensive negotiating going on for the hostages in Quatar. Many agencies involved working 24/7

Yeah I watched an interview with a Qatari negotiator who said they had just about got to grips with a process of negotiation which would be acceptable to Hamas (I believe that was sky news).

An American government member had commented that one of the problems was the lack of direct communication between parties. So the Israelis spoke to the Americans who spoke to the Qataris who then spoke to Hamas kind of thing. It’s an extremely long drawn out process unfortunately.

The absolute barbarism of the October 7th attacks was amongst the worst atrocities that humans have had to endure. Have you read what they did to them? Some of it so depraved that it cannot be reported. Hamas declared war on Israel on that day What on earth do you expect Israel to do?

I also wouldn’t assume that Hamas have got nothing in return for the hostages released. We don’t know what they asked for in return, it may not have been for a ceasefire or humanitarian aid.

If you mean Hamas using children and civilians as human shields then yes, you are correct...!

The UN have said that moving this many people is dangerous and deeply worrying. And they continue to bomb the south anyway. They simply don’t care about how many ordinary Palestinian’s lives are lost in the process of “eliminating hamas”. How will they even know when they have done this - aren’t the big guys in Qatar? . The Israeli authorities don’t seem to care much about the hostages lives either to be honest. They refuse to negotiate. This government is so extreme. You can see how some posters here simply see the death of ordinary Palestinian’s as “collateral damage” and ultimately worth the “prize” of a secure and safe Israel.

I believe that ultimately their heavy handed approach will cost more lives on both sides. Violence breed’s violence. And God only knows what will be left after this - some children with hate in their heart for Israel, a people with absolutely nothing left to lose.

Doesn't help a cease fire to happen or the hostages or civilians not be killed. However I am interested in the tunnels and have been reading up on them this week. Both old reports, what the hostages released have said and what is in the media.

Even if people think this is pointless it is fascinating. The person that runs on of the equestrian centres in Gaza city said to get some of his horses into Gaza they were smuggled in via the tunnel network. Before that I had been imaging narrow dangerous low dark tunnels. However to get horses through the tunnels world have to be fairly big.

Also the ventilation system that provides air for the tunnels needs fuel and a lot of it to work. Hence part of the reason Israel is not letting fuel in. They want to flush Hamas above ground and also not let them have fuel for missile lurchers. They say Hamas could give the 500k gallons they have stockpiled for these things to the civilians. All very bleak and tactical but still interesting to learn what is actually going on.

Errmm…so why when the civilians move south as instructed do the IDF bomb them
anyway??

This ☝️

Thanks for posting OP, I found it very interesting. The sheer scale of these tunnels is probably beyond what most people imagined and clearly has been built over a long time with a lot of effort. There have been many reports of aid diverted and Iran financing Hamas and clearly this is the sort of thing they have spent it on.
The fact even cars can fit through the tunnels is staggering. I think it shows the sophistication of Hamas, they are not some amateur bunch. This is slick terrorist organisation, whose leaders are apparently worth billions.
I’ve read some other things today that suggest there is a considerable stock pile of fuel in this underground labyrinth. If it’s true, it seems Hamas are prepared for a long war.

Does anyone actually believe that it's possible to destroy Hamas. In an urban warfare where your enemy been preparing for years with 40000 fighters. Ok IDF has 6-1 ratio superiority but in a build up area with a tunnel network this is completely irrelevant. Even at the best scenario the loss ratio of 10-1 Hamas to IDF, would 4000 men be acceptable loss for Israeli army I very much doubt it.

Ah yes I had read about the horses too. In my mind for some reason I had thought they were tunnels you would have to crawl through as well.
But on reflection they were obviously to move things more than moving people 🤦🏽‍♀️. Didn’t occur to me they would need ventilation either.

I saw an interview on sky with a representative from the UNRWA who refused to confirm if a fuel storage the IDF claimed belonged to Hamas did in fact belong to them, she looked extremely uncomfortable, I’ll post a link if I can find it later (it’s getting late where I am). It must be extraordinarily difficult to operate in that environment so I don’t doubt that they walk a tightrope between providing aid to Palestinians whilst trying to not piss off Hamas. They won’t be able to function without Hamas’s blessing, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were hoarding fuel tbh, they can’t really operate without it given the requirements of their ventilation systems.

I actually don’t think thats the aim. I think the aim is to destroy the tunnel network to render it inoperable. No tunnels means restrictions on how much can enter Gaza that can be used to create weapons.

I don’t think even the IDF think they can destroy Hamas in this way, a number of it’s leaders yet but no you can’t kill an ideology with bombs.

This is supposed to be a site for mums but the lack of compassion towards Palestinian mums and children is astonishing.
Before anyone bloody jumps on me, what happened to Israeli women and children on October 7th was barbaric and truly haunts me. It's possible to care about both sides,

I think it is possible to have compassion whilst also trying to understand the mechanics of the situation. I doubt a single post on mumsnet is going to be contributing to peace in the middle east, doesn’t matter how much feeling you put into it.

I like to understand what is going on. That is separate for the desperate sadness I feel for Israelis and Palestinians right now.

This

Plus frankly there are lots of threads to say how we feel about things

Bruno Tertrais, Deputy Director of FRS, a non-partisan French security think-tank, said: “There is fuel for diesel generators in Gaza. Plenty of fuel. But Hamas needs a lot of it to power its own generators for air circulation in the subterranean city.

When a UN official was confronted by a Sky News journalist with the claim that Hamas was hoarding fuel for military purposes, she failed to provide any comment or rebuttal.

'Despite the Israeli blockade and its grim economic consequences, Gaza riding centre was doing rather well. It started with a nucleus of Arabian horses bred in Gaza, but this has been recently supplemented with horses from Egypt and Syria imported through the tunnels dug beneath the border at the southern end of the Strip.

"We choose the horses over the internet, looking at video clips," said chief trainer Ahmed Abd Ali. "We also take advice from our trading partners in Egypt."The horses are led through the bigger tunnels.

Some reach the Gaza end with minor scratches, and some appear a little frightened by the journey. "But we have no choice, there is no other way to get them," he said. The animals are already trained but the trainers allow them a few weeks to recover from the tunnel ordeal before putting them to work.