gaza tunnel system

[Noicant]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

The international aid agencies in the region have made it clear that there is nowhere for 2 million Gazans to move to. The borders to Egypt are heavily controlled.

Where do you think they can move to?

It’s this hospital presumably?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/world/middleeast/gaza-al-shifa-hospital-israel.html

This is an interesting article about the tunnel network and the complexities of fighting a war underground.
https://mwi.westpoint.edu/underground-nightmare-hamas-tunnels-and-the-wicked-problem-facing-the-idf/

The south of Gaza as a temporary move to allow military operations in the north, as clearly communicated to the by the IDF for the last 2 weeks.

Israel's latest advice from yesterday for civilians to move south included a sinister post note.
Telling those that flee will be able to return home after the conflict.
Isn't this how so many Palestinians were permanently displaced in recent history?
Were they ever given the ability to return to their homes?
It's no wonder that normal Gazans are reluctant to flee because they know they will never see their homes again.
Either their homes will be blasted into oblivion or the war will go on for so long that it'll never be an option to return.
I was watching a news report yesterday about some Palestinians living in an occupied area. They had chosen (as if they had anywhere to go or another means of making a meagre living) to stay where they owned land and grew olives. Increasingly they are being driven out because they are picking their harvest under Israeli drones and vehicles and the ever threat of arrest.
So to stay and farm the land that has been in your family for generations is becoming more and more difficult.
And this is an area where Palestinians have been given 'permission' to stay.
This won't stay in Gaza it will spread to the West Bank.
It's already started 😞

The south of Gaza? An area already overpopulated and the Israelis have bombed.

Difficult to travel when you have no where to go to, the route has been bombed as has your vehicle, you have no petrol or food , you’re old, disabled, ill or attached to an intensive care unit in hospital.

I won’t be engaging with you anymore after this as clearly your beliefs are detached from reality.
please use google to look up basic facts.

From CNN on the blockade of water, electricity and food as announced by Israel itself:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/09/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-fighting-monday-intl-hnk/index.html

From the UN on the humanitarian crisis caused by said siege:

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-commissioner-general-philippe-lazzarini%E2%80%AF-remarks%E2%80%AF-situation-gaza-strip

From Reuters on Israel telling civilians to move south then bombing the south

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/

amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/05/palestinian-farmer-israeli-settlers-west-bank-wiped-out-olive

Interesting especially when you note this was dated 5th March 2023.

I actually agree that not letting Palestinian refugees return to their land post 1948 and 1967 was a huge mistake for Israel and has caused a lot of the issues they are experiencing today.

But how exactly is Israel now saying that refugees CAN return after military operations conclude somehow 'sinister'?

It's almost like in the minds of some people, Israel is always wrong, no matter what they do.

I wonder why that is? 🤔

Because saying 'after military operations' when Israel has already said they're in it for the long term, can easily mean years. Not days or weeks or even months.

They will be displaced until Israel decree they can go home.
There are still Palestinians waiting to go home Years and years later

Please try reading things other than those that confirm your pre existing views.

Israel has cut off outside provision, however as I said, Gaza has adequate fuel and food supplies to run their hospitals and other services, however they are being hoarded by Hamas for military purposes.

The humanitarian crisis is 100% Hamas' creation, unless you can suggest an alternative to Israel that doesn't involve doing nothing and then waiting for their people to be massacred in another cross border raid?

As for strikes to the south, you'll notice (if you care to) the vagueness of the reports. Israel are permitted to continue to hit military targets all over Gaza N and S while also providing designated safe areas in the S for temporarily displaced civilians to move to, which is exactly what they are doing.

It's Hamas who are stopping them and pushing false narratives that they will be 'targeted' in the South as well, as a way of cynically keeping civilians in their homes in the North in the hope it creates more casualties for them to exploit in the media.

I know who the real monsters are here.

We know that Hamas are at fault (as is Netanyahu) but the south is already being bombed as is the route to travel south.
If you have no petrol and your car has been bombed, how do you travel, where will you stay if you move south, where will you get food and water? If you are old, disabled, ill or in hospital, how will you travel?

@ColonelDax i haven't read the whole thread but you do know that Israel bombed 'ISRAELI DESIGNATED SAFE ZONES' in the south
Not just some random targets

Gaza has adequate fuel, it's being hoarded by Hamas for military purposes. They have medicine and water, once again it is being channeled to Hamas fighters and away from civilians.

How can you possibly know all that?

@PurpleChrayne what utter nonsense
The war against WMD saw some of the largest ever recorded protests globally
It was hugely criticised and still is till today
A stain on all those who took part

Israel can only do their best to protect the civilians as best they can. No measures a military puts in place will ever be 100% effective. That's why wars are bad.

Lay your outrage at the feet of those who knowingly put the civilians at risk in the first place, Hamas.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/gaza-war-satellite-data-shows-israel-intensifying-bombing-of-south-12993277

Gaza has historically been under sieges, blockades, sanctions, calorific rationing for years. This really isn't about 7th October.
Netanyahu doesn't care about the hostages. The IDF could easily storm the tunnels seeing as Israel supposedly has the map and knows where the Hamas HQ is 🤔. This is an intended and purposeful collective punishment against the Palestinians.

Its well established by Western intelligence sources - this region has an incredible level of intelligence operations. We know a lot about how Hamas operates, though still don't know the full extent of the tunnel network which is extensive & pretty sophisticated. Do read the articles that have been posted.

I think we have all agreed that Hamas are wrong but so are Israel. You don’t take someone else’s territory, blockade them in and then bomb them without expecting outrage.

Dont you agree that a Palestinian life is worth as much as an Israeli?

Israel has never been concerned with protecting Palestinian civilians. Quite the opposite really.

Its well established by Western intelligence sources - this region has an incredible level of intelligence operations. We know a lot about how Hamas operates, though still don't know the full extent of the tunnel network which is extensive & pretty sophisticated. Do read the articles that have been posted

Why didn’t Israel anticipate the attack if it knows so much?

Again, read the articles that have been posted - its clear you're not familiar with the issues. Its NOT easy to storm an extensive network of tunnels and there is no definitive map. There is no gps comms down there - soldiers would be going in to a massive booby trap essentially. If it was easy they would have done it years ago.

And not those who forcefully expelled people from their homes with violence and brutality and continued it for 75 years?

The IDF is one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world. I don't believe for one second that Hamas has anything over them. The government has shown they are not bothered about their people. Have you heard the rage in the voices of the families of the hostages? They have been abandoned. Israel say they want to finish Hamas, whilst razing Gaza to the ground and simultaneously saying the tunnels are too complex. They haven't even tried!