gaza tunnel system

[Noicant]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

Wow, you've told us something none of us already knew 😔

Now tell something that will make me believe that the Israel government actually care about any hostages

And tell me they aren't causing genocide , to thousands of Palestinian civilians

How is what the Israeli government are doing now better than the horrific shit that ham's did to Israel civilians

I just don't get it, all these civilians, women , children and also men who aren't fighting, just wanting to stay alive being massacred

Or we can do that on the many other threads talking about such things

Then continue to talk about logistics of the situation because it helps some of us escape the emotionally horrific situation

Or someone can post more emotional responses

These sound very useful but horrific at the same time. Imagine getting caught in one. I hope only Hamas do and any civilians or hostages!

'The ‘sponge bombs’ that Israel plans to use for the tunnel war, are not explosives, but chemical bombs that would be used to seal off gaps. The ‘sponge bombs’ create a sudden explosion of foam that rapidly expands and then hardens. However, there has been no official confirmation from Israel on ‘sponge bombs’.

They contain two liquids in a large plastic bag separated by a metal pole. The pole is extracted before the ‘bomb’ is thrown into its target causing the compounds to mix. The liquid turns into foam which expands and hardens to seal gaps.

The sponge bombs would prevent soldiers being ambushed as they move further into the network, sealing off gaps through which Hamas could attack.'

@SharonEllis And what was happening before Oct 7th?? Have you even been to Gaza your self?
Israel regularly bombs the civilians, absolutely terrorises the common public, everyone knows its an open air prison and they are occupying Gaza.

But that's ok for you I am sure. That's doesn't count, does it? They are less than your precious people eh??

Hundreds of Jews have stood up against the state of israel. What do you have to say about that??

Read the Ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe who is an Israeli author.

@Noicant
Read the Ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe who is an Israeli author.

Not commit genocide ?

Yeah I read about this, it’s a much more elegant solution than collapsing tunnels and destabilising structures beneath the ground. Safer for people in the tunnels and above.

I imagine the problem is that using them in tunnels that lead to tunnels and then other tunnels means you may be cutting off a route for yourself or to hostages.

Can’t help but think that there is a lot of ingenuity between the Palestinians and Israelis, it’s a crying shame that its poured into warfare.

Yes precisely thank you.

There was also an article in yesterdays Guardian by Peter Beaumont about the tunnels including the search of the sub-basements of Al Shatila hosp by Israel in 2014 and the billions of aid money wasted

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/hamas-isis-war-in-gaza/675786/

This is also really interesting, the IDF have been referencing hamas-isis more frequently and this clarifies the difference.

Thank you, that was fascinating, the sheer amount of resource poured into this is immense. I think it gives some insight into the challenges of fighting Hamas. I think the problem is that the IDF will have a limited view of where the tunnels actually are. There must be an element of “best guess” before a bomb is dropped.

They aren't committing genocide. You should listen to international lawyers, not what you read on placards How about what they should do? Noone seems to have an answer?

I really don’t know when people say things like this whether they are really believe it or just pretending to other people to justify the genocide

The poster who claimed the only reason people can’t flee Gaza is Hamas won’t let them had me thinking literally that.

I'm leaning toward thinking that the Israeli government realise that at the heart of all of this sits at the door of their huge failure of intelligence.
This is driving their actions.
The tunnel infrastructure has been created under the noses of their security services. Also they were laid bare with the horrendous attack by Hamas.
My dad worked with all of the intelligence services due to his work in the Middle East. The only intelligence service that sent chills down his spine was Mossad.
So for them to have been shown to be 'sleeping' is a critical hit for Israel.
I don't for one minute think their actions show a wish for peace.

Hate breeds hate and they are ensuring peace will never be negotiated in this region.

So much complete fiction and nonsense on these threads.

Israel 'systematically targeting' civilians 🙄

Israel 'carpet bombing' Gaza. 🙄

Give your heads a wobble. Firstly the death figures coming out of Gaza are provided by Hamas, won't question that source at all... 🙄

Secondly even if the figure of 7000 dead was correct, that is actually a very small figure and indicative of a high degree of distinction and proportionate targeting, given that Gaza is the most densely populated area on earth.

If Israel was actually deliberately targeting civilians, the figure would be in the 100s of thousands, probably higher.

Israel is the military world leader in targeting, because they have to be due to their enemies prefrere tactic of placing military installations in civilian areas, schools and hospitals. (A war crime by the way).

Prior to Oct 7 British military targeters would routinely train with the IDF, because they are known as being the best in the world at minimising civilian deaths.

Innocent people always die in wars, it's tragic but unavoidable. It's one of the key considerations that should be taken before you start a war. Maybe someone should have told Hamas.

I think a big difference that you may not have considered is that I don't see the poor children in those pictures deaths being celebrated by anyone on any side.

Nobody has posted pictures of their murders to their families Facebook accounts, spat on their bodies or tied them together and burnt them for example.

Can't really say the same about Hamas can we? The acts of Oct 7 were the absolute face of evil and showed exactly why Israel has to do what they are doing right now.

yeah I do think partly Netanyahu will be motivated by his failure to protect Israelis. I imagine theres a lot of soul searching. The Israelis have always known about the tunnels. But in what context could they have entered Gaza to collapse them? There was very little they could do to prevent their construction apart from the blockade.

However I think both Hamas and Netanyahu are blocks to peace. Hamas stated aim is the destruction of Israel, they absolutely do not want a 2 state solution. Netanyahu has encouraged settlement of the West Bank and has done nothing to further stability and peace. There literally cannot be peace whilst either of those parties are in power in their respective domains.

I hold out hope that at some time in the future people can live in peace and I don’t see how anything other than a two state solution can ensure that.

@Desertrose2023

Please don’t post pictures of other peoples children. I don’t want anyone posting pictures of dead Israeli children either. It’s grotesque to do that to try to prove a point.

I posted this for people who like to have information about what is going on

Well I'm one of them and I thank you, @Noicant ... and from a reputable source too instead of the usual Twitter crap

I've also noticed your balanced, informative posts on other threads, standing out with a few others like beacons of rationality among what's largely become a mass of hyperbole, misinformation and outright lies

Good luck though, because I doubt you'll be widely thanked for it

I think both Hamas and Netanyahu are blocks to peace. Hamas stated aim is the destruction of Israel, they absolutely do not want a 2 state solution. Netanyahu has encouraged settlement of the West Bank and has done nothing to further stability and peace. There literally cannot be peace whilst either of those parties are in power in their respective domains

More common sense ... how refreshing

Hamas is to blame for the loss of life in Gaza.

I believe in a free press. I have found it very interesting how much Hamas and/or Palestinian etc support there is on MN but that is actually one of hte issues Keir Stamer has had to tackle so perhaps I should not have been so surprised. I understand all view points. I support Israel in this and I appreciate not everyone does. ISIS and others have often used children eg for suicide bombs and to train young child soldiers etc so it is not surprising childre might suffer and they would invade Israel and slit the throats of Jewish babies.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation in the UK and the US and UK both know it is our enemy. Israel was invaded, war is declared and war is terrible but necessary to preserve the country. Hamas wants there to be no jewish state.

I think some people on MN only read one side of the news which is why threads where people are on different sides or none are a good thing so we can hear the views of others.

Honestly I give up.

this isn’t a war. Israel is an occupying power. It doesn’t have a right to self defense as an occupying power, anymore than Russia has a right to self defense as an occupying power. Anyone with half a brain cell should read the International Court of Justice’s advisory opinion on this issue.

Israel has legal responsibilities to the people that it’s occupying.

and even if it was a war, wars have rules. You don’t collectively starve civilians. Cut off their medicine, electricity, fuel, water. Israel’s actions are worse than Hamas - at least we know who they are and what they stand for. Israel tries to present itself as a democracy even when it commits ongoing acts of barbarism, apartheid and yes genocide.

Stop trying to conflate support for Palestinians with support for hamas. Please link any pro Hamas posts on MN. I have been all over these threads for weeks, and all posters supporting Palestinians (including myself) have condemned what hamas did. This is the usual mudslinging that tries to tarnish legitimate criticism of Israel.

The Israelis have stopped Palestinians in the Gaza Strip from having free movement and controlled access to food, water, electricity and medical supplies.
Hamas isn’t Palestinians in the same way as so many Israelis don’t now support Netanyahu.