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Conflict in the Middle East

gaza tunnel system

531 replies

Noicant · 28/10/2023 19:11

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
EasternStandard · 04/11/2023 21:01

Stomacharmeleon · 04/11/2023 20:53

@EasternStandard I assume Israel will really hunker down and it will be super secure. Nothing coming in that way and no using Israel for goods, infrastructure, facilities.

Aka make it someone else's problem. Then the worst they can do it attempt to fire an ineffectual rocket over the top.

I think this will happen if Hamas is gone.

Do you think this is possible with Hamas in place?

I’d want a lot of reassurance and certainty. In which case it becomes the problem for others to resolve

But I just don’t know if I could trust it completely, how do you feel though

I’m so sorry about your family there

Stomacharmeleon · 04/11/2023 21:10

No I don't....

mollyfolk · 04/11/2023 21:21

ProvincialLady1 · 04/11/2023 19:22

They accepted that because they were already in such a weakened position they basically didn't have much of a choice.

Actually the IRA ended up in a better position and got more of what it wanted because the DUP wouldn’t agree. But that really is besides the point of this discussion.

Ultimately it shows that peace is possible even in situations where there is deep rooted hate and historical wrongs on both sides.

It takes an awful lot of compromise on both sides and acceptance that the people involved have opposing and conflicting goals which they will continue to work towards . But they will work towards them without violence basically.

Stomacharmeleon · 04/11/2023 21:23

Sorry..... am a bit emotionally wrought and feel a bit hopeless.
I don't no.
But unfortunately I feel like we at the beginning of something huge. I am hoping peace can be restored (with lots of other Middle East countries assistance) and they become irrelevant. A bit like the Iran/ America thing. Difference is they aren't next door.

I know I going to be moaned at but I would lock down completely. No facilities, no workers, no money, nothing going through. And let Egypt step up. Or another country. Treat it as if it doesn't exist. Completely Grey rock it. And bolster the iron dome.

Treat Hamas like a ineffectual fly in your ear. Let them rage but make them impotent.

ProvincialLady1 · 04/11/2023 21:30

mollyfolk · 04/11/2023 20:50

Destroy the current people involved and Hamas 2.0 will just form unless the underlying reasons are tackled. Violence, poverty and desperation fuels extremism. There are other ways to weaken the Hamas that exist as well - like the funding through Qatar which has happened with Israeli knowledge.

But the problem is not just that Hamas are extremists, but the current Israeli government are also extremists who do not want a 2 state solution. It’s very hard to see peace right now.

I have no doubt that if a few of us were in charge we’d be able to sort it out! It really is men at the very end of the day: if the men were taken out of it, I couldn’t see women committing atrocities against children and everyone.

I think this is a bit simplistic. There has to be a reckoning with extremist belief systems and the whole eliminationist narrative against Israel. It's not about poverty or even violence per se; people can and do hold these types of beliefs while living in comfort, prosperity and safety. So I think you have to take the belief system seriously and not just wave it away as a consequence of 'oppression'. I don't know what the solution to that is. And I'm sure there are extremists on both sides, and I would agree the current government of Israel is far more right wing than most of us are comfortable with.

I certainly don't think there will be any progress towards peace by showing what will be perceived as weakness towards a terrorist organisation. They really have to be forced to understand they have run out of road completely. I don't agree with every aspect of how Israel are going about doing that, but the basic strategy of destroying their ability to continue as they are is one I completely understand and support.

ProvincialLady1 · 04/11/2023 21:32

Stomacharmeleon · 04/11/2023 21:23

Sorry..... am a bit emotionally wrought and feel a bit hopeless.
I don't no.
But unfortunately I feel like we at the beginning of something huge. I am hoping peace can be restored (with lots of other Middle East countries assistance) and they become irrelevant. A bit like the Iran/ America thing. Difference is they aren't next door.

I know I going to be moaned at but I would lock down completely. No facilities, no workers, no money, nothing going through. And let Egypt step up. Or another country. Treat it as if it doesn't exist. Completely Grey rock it. And bolster the iron dome.

Treat Hamas like a ineffectual fly in your ear. Let them rage but make them impotent.

I think this is more than justified and I hope once the military action is over this is exactly what will happen.

ProvincialLady1 · 04/11/2023 21:33

mollyfolk · 04/11/2023 21:21

Actually the IRA ended up in a better position and got more of what it wanted because the DUP wouldn’t agree. But that really is besides the point of this discussion.

Ultimately it shows that peace is possible even in situations where there is deep rooted hate and historical wrongs on both sides.

It takes an awful lot of compromise on both sides and acceptance that the people involved have opposing and conflicting goals which they will continue to work towards . But they will work towards them without violence basically.

@DownNative is very knowledgeable about this, if she's around...

mollyfolk · 04/11/2023 21:53

ProvincialLady1 · 04/11/2023 21:30

I think this is a bit simplistic. There has to be a reckoning with extremist belief systems and the whole eliminationist narrative against Israel. It's not about poverty or even violence per se; people can and do hold these types of beliefs while living in comfort, prosperity and safety. So I think you have to take the belief system seriously and not just wave it away as a consequence of 'oppression'. I don't know what the solution to that is. And I'm sure there are extremists on both sides, and I would agree the current government of Israel is far more right wing than most of us are comfortable with.

I certainly don't think there will be any progress towards peace by showing what will be perceived as weakness towards a terrorist organisation. They really have to be forced to understand they have run out of road completely. I don't agree with every aspect of how Israel are going about doing that, but the basic strategy of destroying their ability to continue as they are is one I completely understand and support.

I disagree, wide scale extremism involves people who feel shafted in some way. I personally can’t think of one example of where a large group of people living in peace, prosperity and safety became extremists.

The saddest thing about all of this is that recent polls suggest that a sizable chunk of both Israeli citizens and Palestinian citizens want a 2 state solution. But maybe that offers a flicker of hope.

Stomacharmeleon · 04/11/2023 22:01

@mollyfolk yes they just need to remove Hamas. Maybe by taking out the hierarchy.

ProvincialLady1 · 04/11/2023 22:20

mollyfolk · 04/11/2023 21:53

I disagree, wide scale extremism involves people who feel shafted in some way. I personally can’t think of one example of where a large group of people living in peace, prosperity and safety became extremists.

The saddest thing about all of this is that recent polls suggest that a sizable chunk of both Israeli citizens and Palestinian citizens want a 2 state solution. But maybe that offers a flicker of hope.

The trouble with that is, people can feel 'shafted' precisely because they have those beliefs to start with. One example would be incels and the MRA movement which is basically men feeling hard done by because they're not automatically top of the pile anymore. The existence of the state of Israel is similarly an affront to an Islamist ideology that believes the entirety of the Middle East should rightfully be under Islamic rule.

Large groups of people do have ideas like this unfortunately, and they have willing allies in the West who buy into the idea that Israel is a European colonialist project. That doesn't mean they would all be violent about those beliefs though, granted.

Desertrose2023 · 06/11/2023 05:49

Yeah because this is all really about Hamas and their tunnels.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzRiPS9LrjI/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzRiPS9LrjI/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

DownNative · 06/11/2023 16:48

mollyfolk · 04/11/2023 21:21

Actually the IRA ended up in a better position and got more of what it wanted because the DUP wouldn’t agree. But that really is besides the point of this discussion.

Ultimately it shows that peace is possible even in situations where there is deep rooted hate and historical wrongs on both sides.

It takes an awful lot of compromise on both sides and acceptance that the people involved have opposing and conflicting goals which they will continue to work towards . But they will work towards them without violence basically.

Really? PIRA got more of what they wanted?

Here's what PIRA wanted:

  1. Northern Ireland out of the UK

  2. No British Government presence in Northern Ireland

  3. Complete British Army withdrawal from Northern Ireland

  4. Stormont regarded as illegitimate, so they believed it couldn't be reformed and could never be accepted by Republicans and Nationalists.

  5. Dublin Castle and Republic of Ireland were illegitimate because they help perpetuate partition and PIRA regarded ROI as a "fascist State".

  6. Principle of Consent is illegitimate as it denies self-determination to the Irish people as a whole. PIRA called this the "Loyalist veto".

  7. Border polls illegitimate because they're authorised only by the British Government whose authority PIRA always opposed.

I don't think it'll be any surprise here to anybody that PIRA spectacularly failed to achieve a single one of these demands!

PIRA achieved NONE of their long held key core demands in the Belfast Agreement of 1998. PIRA always said if they had to accept any of the things they'd opposed that it constituted defeat.

It was the British Government who achieved their key core goals they've had since 1920! 🤷‍♂️

What it shows is that terrorist groups rarely achieve what they say they will and peace settlements come about through their defeat.

But you carry on believing in the propaganda of the peace process. 🤔

@ProvincialLady1 cheers for tagging me. 👍

DownNative · 06/11/2023 17:03

EasterIssland · 04/11/2023 18:58

The IRA accepted the terms of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 as a negotiated end to the Northern Ireland conflict.

thanks god you weren’t in power of the government

Ah, I see you've swallowed the UK Government’s Golden Bridge and Propaganda Of The Peace Process completely without question. 🤦‍♂️

The Sunningdale and Anglo-Irish Agreement eras both demonstrate to us all that the IRA would NOT have given up violence unless they were made to do so by the State's security forces. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the IRA would have given up violence in the 1990s for any other reason than defeat.

As long as fundamentalist terrorist groups believe they can win based on the prevailing health of their organisation, they’ll continue to use violence in aid of their objectives.

Once weakened, such groups will see their leadership drop their previously fundamentalist position and agree to whatever conditions the sovereign power or powers impose. This then is defeat.

"Statesmanship consists not merely in the wisdom of your proposals, but in the choosing of the right moment. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley..........knows what it is to settle an action, and he knows it depends upon your choosing exactly the moment.

You must not choose it when the parties are full of fight, when they are confident they are going to win, when they are confident, not merely in the justice of their case, but in the invincibility of their counsel. Who can stand against it? That is not the time to settle. You have got to wait until difficulties have cropped up which they had never foreseen, when doubt begins to enter their minds as to the completeness of their victory, when the costs are mounting up, and the only smile is on the face of the solicitor, when they are tired out by pleadings and counter-pleadings and all the delays and wearing mechanism of the law. That is the time.

But if you propose too soon, it means not merely that you fail then, but that you interpose obstacles in the way of settling at the right time."

- David Lloyd George, the then Prime Minister, in the House of Commons on 14 December 1921.

In other words, you have to know when the enemy is defeated in order to impose conditions for a peace process.

That's why Frankie Quinn, senior member of the PIRA's East Tyrone brigade, said the following:

"We were saying the armed struggle’s failed, it can’t win. The jails are filling up, people are dying left, right and centre and the British are getting the better hand on us.

Obviously we knew in our hearts that we were deeply, deeply infiltrated at a very high level.

The armed struggle had to stop. We’d dump weapons, call the ceasefire, and then go into talks."

That's a sincere acknowledgement of defeat from a senior member of PIRA.

Another member of PIRA, Kieran Conway agreed with this and said the following:

"The attrition rate was just so appalling.

The SAS, the British intelligence services were obviously in a position to intercept most operations.

It was absolutely clear that we were losing if we hadn’t already lost the war and that it was time to cash in the chips.”

PIRA member John Crawley, an ex-US Marine before joining PIRA, asserted:

"It was a defeat for the Republican Movement, a complete military and ideological defeat across the board that opened up career paths for certain members of the leadership, but left us ideologically destroyed."

Crawley also described the British as "masters at counter-insurgency".

For PSF/PIRA anything less than total and outright victory is defeat.

This is defeat.

To go back to David Lloyd George's 1921 statement above again, what the British Government did with the IRA in 1920 and 1998 can be summed up by Sun Tzu below:

"A surrounded army must be given a way out. The ancient rule of the charioteers says, “Surround them on three sides, leaving one side open, to show them a way to life. Show them a way to life so that they will not be in the mood to fight to the death…”

An enemy that knows it is defeated in all but name is given a way out to save face and spare further bloodshed. This is known as the Golden Bridge.

And ONLY an enemy that knows it is defeated in all but name WILL take the conditions given by the dominant power.

"The British offered the conditions on which they'd leave this country and those were with the consent of a majority of people in the North. That was the conditions the British offered the IRA and the IRA after fighting that for 25 years suddenly decided to say 'this is a victory'?"

-PIRAs Anthony MacIntyre

That is the position the IRA found itself in 1998. It was defeated and so accepted the conditions of the British Government which had been resolute for most of the 20th Century.

Of course the IRA was defeated.

ChickHenLittle · 06/11/2023 19:23

Desertrose2023 · 06/11/2023 05:49

Yeah because this is all really about Hamas and their tunnels.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzRiPS9LrjI/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Vile excuse for a man.

Desertrose2023 · 06/11/2023 19:58

ChickHenLittle · 06/11/2023 19:23

Vile excuse for a man.

yes. What’s hilarious are the pro-Israeli posters all over MN threads acting so affronted when people say the strategic goal is land grab/ ethnic cleansing. the Israelis themselves make absolutely no bones about even trying to hide these intentions.

here are some other nuggets currently floating around for all to see:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzPF7nbrhun/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzSNIuGNDRm/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzPF7nbrhun/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

ChickHenLittle · 06/11/2023 20:07

Desertrose2023 · 06/11/2023 19:58

yes. What’s hilarious are the pro-Israeli posters all over MN threads acting so affronted when people say the strategic goal is land grab/ ethnic cleansing. the Israelis themselves make absolutely no bones about even trying to hide these intentions.

here are some other nuggets currently floating around for all to see:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzPF7nbrhun/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzSNIuGNDRm/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

That (in the videos) is unbelievably vile. I have no other words, really.
After the comments made by many members of the government, our idiotic PM still voices his support. I suppose he's committed political suicide and it'll end his career, but it doesn't do anything to save lives in Gaza.

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 06/11/2023 20:09

Desertrose2023 · 28/10/2023 19:14

Ah yes, they’re trying to get to tunnels. That’s why they are starving a civilian population to death and carpet bombing children into oblivion. Makes total sense.

@Desertrose2023 , Hamas have food, water and fuel. There is no need for the Palestinian people to be without these things. Why aren’t you cross with Hamas?

ChickHenLittle · 06/11/2023 20:13

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 06/11/2023 20:09

@Desertrose2023 , Hamas have food, water and fuel. There is no need for the Palestinian people to be without these things. Why aren’t you cross with Hamas?

I would imagine she is. Why not also be "cross" with the Israeli government for shutting down communications and being complicit in stopping aid getting through? The Israeli government and Hamas both play a part in oppressing Gazans, the actions of both are deplorable.

ScrollingLeaves · 16/11/2023 11:30

Please would anyone with military/ tunnel engineering knowledge explain why we hear reports of the IDF ‘destroying tunnel shafts’ but never one of them seeming to come across underground rooms?

Also, conversely, why do they think it is ok to explode tunnels if hostages are in underground rooms linked them? They could be buried alive.

I think they mentioned last week that they’d destroyed 130.

Rubbishagain · 16/11/2023 19:11

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 06/11/2023 20:09

@Desertrose2023 , Hamas have food, water and fuel. There is no need for the Palestinian people to be without these things. Why aren’t you cross with Hamas?

How are Hamas getting food and water from. Israel is controlling all of north Gaza and the only way in and out.

25milesfromhome · 16/11/2023 22:40

Rubbishagain · 16/11/2023 19:11

How are Hamas getting food and water from. Israel is controlling all of north Gaza and the only way in and out.

They have several months’ worth of supplies already stockpiled underground.

Stomacharmeleon · 16/11/2023 23:12

They can still smuggle goods in the tunnels from Egypt.

Rubbishagain · 16/11/2023 23:16

25milesfromhome · 16/11/2023 22:40

They have several months’ worth of supplies already stockpiled underground.

How do you know this. There’s very little real evidence for anything. The latest about the equipment in the mri room is not believable either.

25milesfromhome · 16/11/2023 23:26

Rubbishagain · 16/11/2023 23:16

How do you know this. There’s very little real evidence for anything. The latest about the equipment in the mri room is not believable either.

Ok cool, thanks for stopping by.

Rubbishagain · 17/11/2023 00:15

25milesfromhome · 16/11/2023 23:26

Ok cool, thanks for stopping by.

Ok you’re just confirming there’s no evidence to back up what you’re claiming.