Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

gaza tunnel system

531 replies

Noicant · 28/10/2023 19:11

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/10/2023 08:39

Please link any pro Hamas posts on MN

As I'm sure you'll know perfectly well these have been deleted - and rightly so

In a way it's a shame because it enables the claim of "didn't happen", but of course I totally get why they have to go

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 08:53

I believe in a free press. I have found it very interesting how much Hamas and/or Palestinian etc support there is on MN

No-one supports Hamas 🙄

Ohdearanotheryear · 29/10/2023 08:54

Noicant · 29/10/2023 07:55

@Desertrose2023

Please don’t post pictures of other peoples children. I don’t want anyone posting pictures of dead Israeli children either. It’s grotesque to do that to try to prove a point.

I agree totally.
I think it's sick that people post pictures of dead children to make points. We ALL KNOW that children are dying on both sides. We don't need to share pictures to know that and can't understand people that feel the need to see images of people who have been raped or murdered or beheaded to believe it either.

This thread is interesting snd different @Noicant I hope it isn't derailed by people who can post on any if the other threads that are full of incorrect rubbish and emotional rants.

AuContraire · 29/10/2023 08:58

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/10/2023 08:08

I posted this for people who like to have information about what is going on

Well I'm one of them and I thank you, @Noicant ... and from a reputable source too instead of the usual Twitter crap

I've also noticed your balanced, informative posts on other threads, standing out with a few others like beacons of rationality among what's largely become a mass of hyperbole, misinformation and outright lies

Good luck though, because I doubt you'll be widely thanked for it

Also grateful to Noicant for her informative posts and threads.

BurbleBumleBleep · 29/10/2023 09:03

One side has tunnels, rockets made from water pipes and whatever else they can buy on the quiet.
The other has a well funded elite military force with tanks, planes and an army.

Israel holds the cards in this war and is using this to get rid of the Palestine problem. It’ll look lovely in a few years as part of the Israeli state.

SharonEllis · 29/10/2023 09:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This is horribly disrespectful to these poor children. How heartless - I would delete this. And you know full well that pictures of suffering children neither prove or disprove genocide which is a legal formulation. All sides suffer horrifically in a war. Trying to stir people up with pictures like this is manipulative & gets us nowhere.

Dinkydaisy1 · 29/10/2023 09:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 09:09

So much complete fiction and nonsense on these threads.

Israel 'systematically targeting' civilians 🙄

Israel 'carpet bombing' Gaza. 🙄

Give your heads a wobble. Firstly the death figures coming out of Gaza are provided by Hamas, won't question that source at all... 🙄

Israel is carpet bombing Gaza. With all due respect I’m not sure how you can deny that.
Hamas aside I think you can infer high civilian casualties

If Israel was actually deliberately targeting civilians, the figure would be in the 100s of thousands, probably higher

I see no reason why Israel would be targeting civilians and no, they’re not attempting genocide, but there is something about the “if we wanted to kill them all then we would of done it by now” argument that seems a bit off.

Israel is the military world leader in targeting, because they have to be due to their enemies prefrere tactic of placing military installations in civilian areas, schools and hospitals. (A war crime by the way).

Well if the article linked in the OP is correct their installations are actually underground and, as you say, Gaza is a small place so there will be schools and hospitals on top of them.
I mean are there any non-civilian areas?

Ohdearanotheryear · 29/10/2023 09:09

AuContraire · 29/10/2023 08:58

Also grateful to Noicant for her informative posts and threads.

Another that gives thanks for thread with thanks from reliable sources rather than sonevofvtge insta and twitter opinion pieces others share.

Iwasafool · 29/10/2023 09:11

blythemum · 28/10/2023 20:33

Most of the targets are in the north but they're still legitimate targets in the south too.

I'm not saying it's a great situation - it's awful - but destroying the infrastructure is the quickest way to get this war finished.

And if that results in genocide?

SharonEllis · 29/10/2023 09:12

BurbleBumleBleep · 29/10/2023 09:03

One side has tunnels, rockets made from water pipes and whatever else they can buy on the quiet.
The other has a well funded elite military force with tanks, planes and an army.

Israel holds the cards in this war and is using this to get rid of the Palestine problem. It’ll look lovely in a few years as part of the Israeli state.

Hamas is also well funded by its allies. Its tunnels are not scraped out by plucky revolutionaries with a little shovel. Its a pretty sophisticated network - the deepest we know about is the depth of the channel tunnel.

The tunnels are full of military supplies plus power, food, water, none of which are not being shared with ordinary palestinians.

Here's another recent article
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hamas-tunnels-network-gaza-israel-invasion-thlflp5vf?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1698565054-1

Parker231 · 29/10/2023 09:14

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 08:53

I believe in a free press. I have found it very interesting how much Hamas and/or Palestinian etc support there is on MN

No-one supports Hamas 🙄

Agreed. Some posters can’t seem to separate Hamas from the Palestinians. Everyone, I hope, agrees that Hamas are wrong but the Palestinians aren’t.

Ohdearanotheryear · 29/10/2023 09:14

@SharonEllis

Are you able to cut and paste article I cannot read since behind payroll?
Thanks

Iwasafool · 29/10/2023 09:15

ChickenSoupAndLokshen · 28/10/2023 20:40

You know, Hamas could surrender to save the people it claims to represent. Release the hostages, stop all rocket fire and fully surrender. The bombing would stop then. Why don't they?

If Israel is happy to bomb Gaza when the hostages are there how much worse do you think it will be when they don't have to "think" of the hostages?

Efacsen · 29/10/2023 09:15

@Desertrose2023 please remove the picture of those dead children - totally unneccessary and ghoulish

If I or anyone else wants to look at dead/dying children Twitter is overflowing with them - don't want or need them here

ColonelDax · 29/10/2023 09:17

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 09:09

So much complete fiction and nonsense on these threads.

Israel 'systematically targeting' civilians 🙄

Israel 'carpet bombing' Gaza. 🙄

Give your heads a wobble. Firstly the death figures coming out of Gaza are provided by Hamas, won't question that source at all... 🙄

Israel is carpet bombing Gaza. With all due respect I’m not sure how you can deny that.
Hamas aside I think you can infer high civilian casualties

If Israel was actually deliberately targeting civilians, the figure would be in the 100s of thousands, probably higher

I see no reason why Israel would be targeting civilians and no, they’re not attempting genocide, but there is something about the “if we wanted to kill them all then we would of done it by now” argument that seems a bit off.

Israel is the military world leader in targeting, because they have to be due to their enemies prefrere tactic of placing military installations in civilian areas, schools and hospitals. (A war crime by the way).

Well if the article linked in the OP is correct their installations are actually underground and, as you say, Gaza is a small place so there will be schools and hospitals on top of them.
I mean are there any non-civilian areas?

Edited

Israel isn't carpet bombing. Carpet bombing is an outdated technique which hasn't been used for decades since the advent of precision munitions. Please try and understand what you are saying before you make such bold assertions.

SharonEllis · 29/10/2023 09:20

Ohdearanotheryear · 29/10/2023 09:14

@SharonEllis

Are you able to cut and paste article I cannot read since behind payroll?
Thanks

You should be able to sign up to read a few free articles a month I think? If I cut and paste it will be a massive post?

Iwasafool · 29/10/2023 09:22

Noicant · 28/10/2023 22:07

I actually don’t think thats the aim. I think the aim is to destroy the tunnel network to render it inoperable. No tunnels means restrictions on how much can enter Gaza that can be used to create weapons.

I don’t think even the IDF think they can destroy Hamas in this way, a number of it’s leaders yet but no you can’t kill an ideology with bombs.

Aren't the hostages in the tunnels? If that is true, and released hostages seem to have been in them, how does the aim to save the hostages work with the aim to destroy the tunnels?

YankeeDad · 29/10/2023 09:25

Hamas are strategically brilliant, and Iran has used Hamas masterfully. Their core mission is to permanently destroy the state of Israel, either killing or driving away all of the Jews, and with their barbaric and large scale surprise attack against Israeli civilians, they have taken a huge stride towards accomplishing that. Hamas claim to represent people in Gaza, but actually Hamas and Iran are using people in Gaza to accomplish their own aims.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia, which were sidling towards normal relations with Israel, can or will no longer do that. Hostility by Saudi/Turkey against Israel will strengthen Hamas, and will also strengthen Iran. Western support for Israel will falter. That is exactly what Hamas wants.

Israel's leadership is obnoxious, murderous and self-centred, and overly beholden to a minority of religious zealots, but strategically the country is between a rock and a hard place and any other Israeli government would face exactly the same dilemma. They have basically two choices:

  1. Cease fire, and wait for Hamas to bring in thousands of additional rockets and other weaponry, and then do the same thing again, only worse, and and again, even worse, and then repeat again, until all Jewish Israelis are either dead or gone, or
  2. Do what they are doing now and go after Hamas and the tunnels, despite the fact that this can only be accomplished by also killing many thousands of civilians, because Hamas has installed its command centres and weapons depots underground beneath civilian infrastructure. The inevitable result is that people who already hated Israel will hate them more vehemently, Israel will also receive less consistent support from the West, and Hamas will therefore be that much closer to their ultimate goal of destroying Israel and killing or driving out all Jewish Israelis.

Israel has a stronger military, but in the long run, they cannot win, neither strategically nor in the minds and hearts of the population here in the UK. Israel is in an extremely weak position geographically, on a small and narrow strip of land, surrounded by enemies who vastly outnumber them and who will attack again and again and again. That willingness to attack was perhaps diminishing among the larger states, and I believe that is the real reason why Hamas' allies helped them to attack in this way right now. Israel's enemies only need to win once in order to forever wipe Israel and its population off the face of the earth. Israel needs to win every single time they get attacked, and they need to win while exercising enough restraint to maintain support for the next time they get attacked. That is their eternal dilemma.

For those who argue for a two state solution, with two states existing peacefully side by side, unfortunately it seems clear that Hamas will never accept that, even if Israel were to give back all of the land they have unlawfully taken. Hamas want a one state solution, with either no Jews at all, or Jews who are their subjects. They will accept nothing less.

Iwasafool · 29/10/2023 09:27

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/10/2023 08:11

I think both Hamas and Netanyahu are blocks to peace. Hamas stated aim is the destruction of Israel, they absolutely do not want a 2 state solution. Netanyahu has encouraged settlement of the West Bank and has done nothing to further stability and peace. There literally cannot be peace whilst either of those parties are in power in their respective domains

More common sense ... how refreshing

The Brtish govt are supporting one and not the other.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/10/2023 09:31

Everyone, I hope, agrees that Hamas are wrong but the Palestinians aren’t

In principle yes, and clearly it's wrong to make assumptions about an entire population since people aren't a hive mind

However it's difficult to ignore poll after poll which suggest that Hamas still have widespread support among Palestinians, which muddies the waters more than somewhat

Ohdearanotheryear · 29/10/2023 09:31

SharonEllis · 29/10/2023 09:20

You should be able to sign up to read a few free articles a month I think? If I cut and paste it will be a massive post?

Thanks I will do that

EasternStandard · 29/10/2023 09:32

YankeeDad · 29/10/2023 09:25

Hamas are strategically brilliant, and Iran has used Hamas masterfully. Their core mission is to permanently destroy the state of Israel, either killing or driving away all of the Jews, and with their barbaric and large scale surprise attack against Israeli civilians, they have taken a huge stride towards accomplishing that. Hamas claim to represent people in Gaza, but actually Hamas and Iran are using people in Gaza to accomplish their own aims.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia, which were sidling towards normal relations with Israel, can or will no longer do that. Hostility by Saudi/Turkey against Israel will strengthen Hamas, and will also strengthen Iran. Western support for Israel will falter. That is exactly what Hamas wants.

Israel's leadership is obnoxious, murderous and self-centred, and overly beholden to a minority of religious zealots, but strategically the country is between a rock and a hard place and any other Israeli government would face exactly the same dilemma. They have basically two choices:

  1. Cease fire, and wait for Hamas to bring in thousands of additional rockets and other weaponry, and then do the same thing again, only worse, and and again, even worse, and then repeat again, until all Jewish Israelis are either dead or gone, or
  2. Do what they are doing now and go after Hamas and the tunnels, despite the fact that this can only be accomplished by also killing many thousands of civilians, because Hamas has installed its command centres and weapons depots underground beneath civilian infrastructure. The inevitable result is that people who already hated Israel will hate them more vehemently, Israel will also receive less consistent support from the West, and Hamas will therefore be that much closer to their ultimate goal of destroying Israel and killing or driving out all Jewish Israelis.

Israel has a stronger military, but in the long run, they cannot win, neither strategically nor in the minds and hearts of the population here in the UK. Israel is in an extremely weak position geographically, on a small and narrow strip of land, surrounded by enemies who vastly outnumber them and who will attack again and again and again. That willingness to attack was perhaps diminishing among the larger states, and I believe that is the real reason why Hamas' allies helped them to attack in this way right now. Israel's enemies only need to win once in order to forever wipe Israel and its population off the face of the earth. Israel needs to win every single time they get attacked, and they need to win while exercising enough restraint to maintain support for the next time they get attacked. That is their eternal dilemma.

For those who argue for a two state solution, with two states existing peacefully side by side, unfortunately it seems clear that Hamas will never accept that, even if Israel were to give back all of the land they have unlawfully taken. Hamas want a one state solution, with either no Jews at all, or Jews who are their subjects. They will accept nothing less.

I agree with much of this. Leaving Hamas to operate isn’t really something Israel can do

regularmumnotacoolmum · 29/10/2023 09:42

theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Sugaristheenemy · 29/10/2023 09:45

Israel isn't carpet bombing. Carpet bombing is an outdated technique which hasn't been used for decades since the advent of precision munitions. Please try and understand what you are saying before you make such bold assertions

I’ll tell you what I do t understand - what are they actually bombing then? Hospitals that have a tunnel underneath them? If they really are billion dollar tunnels then I’m guessing Hamas made them bomb proof.

Swipe left for the next trending thread