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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

To think Israel won't exist much longer?

890 replies

sergeantsalt · 28/10/2023 07:56

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

OP posts:
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78
OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:29

Milkandhoneybees · 28/10/2023 21:12

There are, at this point, numerous examples of Netanyahu using genocidal rhetoric when speaking about the Palestinians, as well as members of the government and Knesset.

Quote from a member of Knesset, calling for another Nakba (the mass ethnic cleansing massacre committed by the Jewish settled and driving out Palestinians from their homes into other countries):

“Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join! their Nakba, because like then in 1948, the alternative is clear,” Kallner wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter.

https://english.alarabiya.net/amp/News/middle-east/2023/10/08/Israeli-Knesset-member-calls-for-second-Nakba-amid-ongoing-conflict-with-Hamas

IDF reservist saying “erase their families, their mothers and their children. These animals can no longer live.”

https://twitter.com/m7mdkurd/status/1712935005675041165?s=42

This is a great article on the matter from Mondoweiss:

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/genocide-has-been-catching-up-to-israelis-ever-since-zionisms-inception/

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Unless it's Israel's policy, it's still not genocide.

I don't agree with their comments. Extremists say disgusting things on a regular basis. Some of these extremists are elected officials, others are not. However, unless their disgusting comments become Israel's actual policy, it's not genocide.

If Israel's policy ever changes I will of course rethink my stance on the matter.

NotSuchASmugMarried · 28/10/2023 21:31

EasternStandard · 28/10/2023 21:27

Hamas are not ‘freedom fighters’ they are terrorists

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"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter."

Nelson Mandela

Tealtoffee · 28/10/2023 21:35

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:29

Unless it's Israel's policy, it's still not genocide.

I don't agree with their comments. Extremists say disgusting things on a regular basis. Some of these extremists are elected officials, others are not. However, unless their disgusting comments become Israel's actual policy, it's not genocide.

If Israel's policy ever changes I will of course rethink my stance on the matter.

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Because Israel are going to be honest about their intentions…as long as they keep saying that’s not their intention you’ll believe them - you may be a touch naive.

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:35

NotSuchASmugMarried · 28/10/2023 21:31

"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter."

Nelson Mandela

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Sure, but Hamas are terrorists to everyone.

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:36

Tealtoffee · 28/10/2023 21:35

Because Israel are going to be honest about their intentions…as long as they keep saying that’s not their intention you’ll believe them - you may be a touch naive.

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I guess either I'm naive or you're just really big into conspiracy theories.

I know where I'd put my money.

ketchup07070 · 28/10/2023 21:38

I think the way they have silenced Gaza speaks volumes about their intentions.

SomeCatFromJapan · 28/10/2023 21:38

doesn't mean I support it, noone expect others to die even for their nation but that what freedom fighters does :(

Freedom fighters? They're hardly fighting for democracy are they?

Which btw Nelson Mandela was. He was fighting for equality for all South Africans, not the freedom to ethnically cleanse Israel of Jews and turn it into a sharia state.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that we've got to the point of Hamas apologists now.

EasternStandard · 28/10/2023 21:39

NotSuchASmugMarried · 28/10/2023 21:31

"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter."

Nelson Mandela

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I knew there’d be a quote. Still terrorists.

Milkandhoneybees · 28/10/2023 21:46

“It is clear Palestinian militants were hiding in these buildings with their Israeli captives as Israeli soldiers were blasting their way in with massive tank shells in close quarters. It deserves to be investigated who caused most of the death and destruction that took place. This is especially important as these deaths are now being used to justify the destruction of Gaza and the killing of thousands of civilians there.“

From Mondoweiss. This article also contains the transcript of the interview with the Kibbutz hostage who spoke about IDF soldiers killing both Hamas militants and Israeli citizens:

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/

Israeli soldiers drive along the border with Gaza near the southern city of Ofakim, October 11, 2023.

A growing number of reports indicate Israeli forces responsible for Israeli civilian and military deaths following October 7 attack

Many details of what transpired on October 7 continue to be shrouded in mystery, including how the 1,400 Israelis who died were killed. A growing number of reports indicate the Israeli military was responsible for civilian and military deaths.

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:49

@Milkandhoneybees
I'm not going to click that second link as I have no idea what publication that is, but did you not see the videos Hamas themselves posted? Have you not heard the recording of the guy who bragged about killing 10 Jews with his own hands? Hamas need to be dealt with.

For the first link you sent, I hope the extremist settlers responsible rot in jail. I used a stronger word first but realised it might be offensive so deleted it

Gruntsandgroans · 28/10/2023 21:53

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:49

@Milkandhoneybees
I'm not going to click that second link as I have no idea what publication that is, but did you not see the videos Hamas themselves posted? Have you not heard the recording of the guy who bragged about killing 10 Jews with his own hands? Hamas need to be dealt with.

For the first link you sent, I hope the extremist settlers responsible rot in jail. I used a stronger word first but realised it might be offensive so deleted it

Edited

I dont think that that poster is saying Hamas didn't kill some Israelis, they are saying that the IDF also killed some Israelis.

Trulywonderful · 28/10/2023 21:54

sergeantsalt · 28/10/2023 07:56

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

The majority of their neighbouring countries want Hamas gone as much as Israel. Egypt and Saudi Arabia for a start. What you have seen is them making noises to keep their Muslim citizens happy ish. However a week ago they all met with Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Handshakes happened and agreement was made. Frankly the west is giving itself to much credit in thinking Israel a middle eastern country cares if people flag wave and march. The only thing that matters is whatever the agreement between the middle eastern states was. They all want economic stability and have tourist industries, something Hamas keeps interrupting. Hamas has not only attacked Israel regularly, it has staged terrorist attacks else were in the middle east. Israel is very well backed by middle eastern leaders in there current mission.

Oliotya · 28/10/2023 21:55

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:36

I guess either I'm naive or you're just really big into conspiracy theories.

I know where I'd put my money.

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We established earlier that both sides use lies and hyperbole. Have you changed your mind already?

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:56

Gruntsandgroans · 28/10/2023 21:53

I dont think that that poster is saying Hamas didn't kill some Israelis, they are saying that the IDF also killed some Israelis.

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I understand that but regardless of if some were killed in crossfire, Hamas still need to be dealt with. I mean, they tied up groups of children together before setting them on fire. They threw multiple grenades into bomb shelters knowing there was no way out for the people inside the tiny room. They uploaded videos of murders onto their victims' social media pages so their friends and family could see

Tealtoffee · 28/10/2023 21:56

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:36

I guess either I'm naive or you're just really big into conspiracy theories.

I know where I'd put my money.

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And I’m really hoping you are right and I am wrong - it’s a big hope!

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:59

Oliotya · 28/10/2023 21:55

We established earlier that both sides use lies and hyperbole. Have you changed your mind already?

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No, I haven't. Not sure why you'd think that. I think putting words in Israel's mouth and insisting you're right is ridiculous, which is what this other poster was doing. Making assumptions based on nothing concrete.

Glad you're still on here though, I've been waiting for you to confirm what you meant earlier? Your last post confused me.

SinnerBoy · 28/10/2023 22:01

*OhHelloTheres" · Today 18:01

It's a terrible situation. It's not genocide though. I wish people would stop throwing that word around.

Could you list your qualifications in international humanitarian law please? And set out your legal arguments for contradicting the great majority of experts in international law, members of both independent practices and organisations like the Red Cross, UN, Amnesty etc?

Because I choose to believe them over posters like yourself.

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 22:02

Milkandhoneybees · 28/10/2023 21:56

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Can't read the articles without signing up, which I refuse to do. Haaretz haven't traditionally been my cup of tea.

Every government and organisation has their version of hasbara though. It's really not a big deal?! I had a sibling who worked in hasbara - they were a spokesperson for the IDF. They wrote press releases and whatnot

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 22:05

SinnerBoy · 28/10/2023 22:01

*OhHelloTheres" · Today 18:01

It's a terrible situation. It's not genocide though. I wish people would stop throwing that word around.

Could you list your qualifications in international humanitarian law please? And set out your legal arguments for contradicting the great majority of experts in international law, members of both independent practices and organisations like the Red Cross, UN, Amnesty etc?

Because I choose to believe them over posters like yourself.

Myself and others have answered this multiple times over various threads including this one.

"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Israel isn't deliberately killing a large number of people except for Hamas, and they don't have the stated aim of destroying Palestine.

Not sure what more I can say on the matter, really. Plenty of experts agree with that assessment. Or rather, I agree with their assessment.

Milkandhoneybees · 28/10/2023 22:08

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 21:49

@Milkandhoneybees
I'm not going to click that second link as I have no idea what publication that is, but did you not see the videos Hamas themselves posted? Have you not heard the recording of the guy who bragged about killing 10 Jews with his own hands? Hamas need to be dealt with.

For the first link you sent, I hope the extremist settlers responsible rot in jail. I used a stronger word first but realised it might be offensive so deleted it

Edited

Mondoweiss is a news website set up by two Jewish journalists, one of whom used to work for the New York Observer. They both have progressive Jewish politics.

As a PP said, I’m not saying the Hamas militants didn’t kill anyone, but I’m critical of the fact that no one is really talking about the fact that the IDF killed the citizens it’s supposed to be protecting, even using shelling.

I was shocked that a pro-Israeli on another thread was happy for hostages to be starved, deprived of clean water and medicine, or fuel for treating any of them, as well as the fact there are now reports of the IDF killing the hostages when shelling Gaza, but she was fine with all that, also fine with kids and babies being killed, as long as they’re Palestinians.

I’m highlighting this for anyone who cares, and for anyone who puts the life of fellow humans before tribalism.

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 22:16

Milkandhoneybees · 28/10/2023 22:08

Mondoweiss is a news website set up by two Jewish journalists, one of whom used to work for the New York Observer. They both have progressive Jewish politics.

As a PP said, I’m not saying the Hamas militants didn’t kill anyone, but I’m critical of the fact that no one is really talking about the fact that the IDF killed the citizens it’s supposed to be protecting, even using shelling.

I was shocked that a pro-Israeli on another thread was happy for hostages to be starved, deprived of clean water and medicine, or fuel for treating any of them, as well as the fact there are now reports of the IDF killing the hostages when shelling Gaza, but she was fine with all that, also fine with kids and babies being killed, as long as they’re Palestinians.

I’m highlighting this for anyone who cares, and for anyone who puts the life of fellow humans before tribalism.

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Please don't call them Hamas militants. They're terrorists.

I'm not surprised if civilians were caught in the crossfire - seems sort of inevitable when there are terrorists involved.

Peterpiperspickledpepper · 28/10/2023 22:17

Reported this post about Hamas ‘freedom fighters’. This board goes from bad to worse.

EsmaCannonball · 28/10/2023 22:17

The Hamas leaders aren't prepared to die. That's why they're living it up on their billions in Qatar. The Hamas fighters aren't so prepared to die that they won't do all their shooting and rocket-launching from behind children and hostages. True freedom fighters don't attack civilians and hide behind them.