To think Israel won't exist much longer?

[sergeantsalt]

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

The problem is that western democracies are in the minority and many of the people who are lucky enough to live in one seem to want a world order with Russia, China and Iran in charge. A lot of people also seem to want western prosperity and stability but none of the fundamental values that have been fought for over the centuries to create those conditions.

The worry for Israel at the moment is that Hamas has 30 000 fighters, Hezbollah at least 100 000 and, in recent weeks, at least 50 000 Iranian-backed jihadists have moved into southern Syria. Hezbollah and the jihadists in Syria are waiting to see if Israel gets bogged down in Gaza before deciding how to react. These are not rag-tag freedom fighters, they are Iranian-funded, armed and trained soldiers, but soldiers who will be fighting ISIS-style. (Indeed, many of them are from ISIS/ISIL.) If they invade, Israeli civilians won't be collateral casualties, they will be the targets.

So many people with comfortable lives seem to want to live in a totalitarian state. Perhaps we should do a deal where we take some of our Hampstead Radicals and Ivy League Ayatollahs and swap them for the hostages and Palestinian children? It seems cruel not to let them live among like-minded people.

And, of course, the other issue is Ukraine being neglected or abandoned by the increasingly ambivalent Americans if Israel needs more support. All things that Iran's ally and long-standing opponent of Israel, Russia, wants.

Netanyahu and his allies are further isolating Israel from the rest of the world.

They are committing a genocide
Let there be no doubt
This is a genocide

Tjada D’Oyen McKenna, chief executive of the humanitarian non-governmental organisation Mercy Corps, has issued the following statement in the wake of the widespread communications blackout across Gaza last night:
The last 24 hours of intense and escalating bombardments in Gaza will drastically increase the already horrific civilian death toll from this conflict. We have now lost touch with all of our nearly 70 team members in Gaza amid a communications blackout.

We have no way of verifying their safety or assessing the rapidly deteriorating situation. We fear for our team and for the 2 million civilians who are trapped in Gaza with nowhere safe to go and completely cut off from the outside world …

There is no internet. There is no mobile service. From limited information emerging from Gaza, the blackout means that people can’t call for ambulances, and the limited but critical humanitarian assistance that was

We fear the further escalation of violence will result in untold tragedy that will be a stain on the global conscience.”

It's a terrible situation. It's not genocide though. I wish people would stop throwing that word around. It's like you think if you say it enough times it'll become normalised so that people stop questioning it and just accept it as the truth, further demonising Israel.

@OhHelloTheres absolutely agree. The term genocide has been used to the point that it’s meaningless.

@OhHelloTheres there are many human rights lawyers and attorneys all over the worrls who have called this a genocide
You can disagree ofcourse but I agree with them
This is just one example

https://ccrjustice.org/home/press-center/press-releases/rights-lawyers-release-legal-analysis-us-complicity-israel-s

But if you look back in history to the plight of the Armenian People, you'll find many similarities to what is happening in Gaza ... that was genocide. So why not what's happening in Gaza?

This is what a genocide looks like
These are the 2913 CHILDREN killed by the Israeli military this month as of October 26th
And these are just the ones accounted for

Continued

Countries like Singapore prove that you don't need to be a democracy to have western style prosperity as it's the third richest country in the world with zero natural resources. It is richer than most western cities too (with the exception of cities in the USA) so not just about it being a western city state.

It is true however that peaceful countries are a minority perhaps due to history and social conditions. Peaceful countries are in two camps - western countries as well as very rich Asian countries with high degree of social harmony like Japan and Singapore (and some democratic principles like rule of law ).

Israel is also more of a hybrid regime these days, but perhaps not surprising given their young age, the security situation and demographics (most of their citizens are descendants of those expelled from Muslim lands/ex Soviet Union and still have the same mindset, Arabs or ultra orthodox Jews with those from liberal western countries in the definite minority).

It's massive world news. Why on earth would you expect them not to report on it?

I hate to say this, but have these lists been verified? I don't understand how they can have counted and identified them all so quickly when Israel still hasn't been able to identify all their bodies.

I know innocent children have died. One innocent life is obviously one too many. But are these lists accurate? It wouldn't be the first time a Palestinian organisation has greatly inflated the number of victims.

I'm sorry. I don't like having to talk as though these babies and children are just numbers. They're not. It's a hard topic to discuss without sounding really callous.

I'm really just asking you to question everything Hamas says. I'm not asking you to stop caring about the loss of lives. In fact, please never stop caring about the loss of life.

@Ylvamoon
I thought it was still heavily disputed that it's genocide? Or do you mean one of the historical wars rather than the most recent events? If so, I'm afraid I would have to read up on it as I don't know anything about the history of Armenia, really.

Firstly, how can anything be verified when there is both a digital blackout and complete physical blockade? And secondly, they haven't identified all the dead. These are just the ones they have.
But we dare to suggest the 40 beheaded babies wasn't entirely accurate...

Whilst it would be impossible to independantly verify every single death in a war zone like Gaza it seems that in line with the huge Israeli strikes in many residential areas this figure seems largely correct.

From the guardian
A UN official who declined to be publicly identified said his agency had used and checked Gaza health ministry data for years.“I have seen nothing that says to me they are making the numbers up. We looked at some of the Israeli bombings and the numbers of deaths the ministry is claiming for a particular attack are broadly in line with what we have seen in previous wars.”He said the reason for the higher overall casualty figures was that the attacks were “much bigger than anything we’ve seen in previous wars. It’s not that they’re inflating the numbers.”

Right, so you acknowledge that in war situations people spread false propaganda to suit their narratives? And it seems you're also saying it's likely these lists are false as how could they possibly have compiled these lists during such a severe blockade and amidst bombings?

I'm saying to not blindly trust a terrorist organisation. I'm not saying not to mourn the dead.

I understand, but they clearly do provide false numbers as they announced 500 dead in the hospital parking lot within minutes of the explosion happening. Absolutely impossible for them to have known that.

It's a shame some people are willfully misunderstanding the OP's question and in doing so are ignoring the very real risks of a much wider conflict which could end very badly for Israel.

If this dispute was contained between Israel and Hamas then of course it would be no contest, a US supported Israel would win in the end. The win would be relatively short term because Israel's current actions will become a recruitment tool for extremist organisations.

I am listening to what is being said in the UN Security Council meetings, political leaders in the region, experienced military people and intelligence analysts.

Most of the Muslim/Arab world have called for a cease fire and humanitarian aid to be allowed to enter Gaza. Other countries in the region have called for a diplomatic/political resolution but Israel shows no signs of listening. Now we have Egypt and Jordan calling out the west for its hypocrisy. Multiple armed militia groups/Iranian proxies in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Yemen, Iran is making direct threats and has the military power to follow through. Erdogan is losing patience and Pakistani have said if Turkey needs nukes they will supply. Turkey is the biggest military in the region and can almost match the US in terms of numbers of military personnel and has an additional 325k reservists. China and Russia are pissed off and have deployed military assets in the region.

Add on top of this that wherever the US and allies have intervened we leave behind countries in ruin with barely functioning government. I think the ME is fed up of our regime change/war on terror/peace keeping endeavours.

If those countries decide to become involved and provide coordinated support for each other then there will be little Israel, the US and it's allies can do to repel them.

I can't answer the OP's question but if our political leaders continue to ignore the risks and encourage Israel then I think Israel may regret it's destroy Hamas at ALL costs approach. The people of Israel deserve better.

@OhHelloTheres I agree that there is propaganda on both sides and therefore you may be sceptical
But since the start of the war Israel has said time and time again that Hamas hide behind women and children hence they have no choice in the matter
They have also been largely open with how many strikes they carry out daily for example a 100 strikes just last night. We also all know how densely populated Gaza is with over a million children residing there
Adding both together it's not far off that this many children have died

I never blindly trust any organisation or government.
But as with the beheaded babies, quibbling over the exact number or manner of death is insensitive and unnecessary.
I believe, as does the UN, the numbers are largely as accurate as can be expected in the circumstances.

Why don’t you think it’s Genocide - what more would need to happen - everyone dead in Gaza? Would that be enough? Because it looks like that’s going to be result - is the excuse going to continue to be - it wasn’t our intention they got in the way? The lack of respect for human life is shocking on both sides.

@Parkingt111
That feels like a whole lot of assumptions being made.

@Oliotya
I disagree and think the numbers may be inflated. It doesn't make sense that they've consistently been able to count them so quickly. I'd keep questioning if I were you.

@Tealtoffee
I just don't think it fits the definition of genocide. I think it's horrendous, I just don't think it's genocide. I'm not alone in that thinking, several world leaders agree. What makes you say it is genocide?

I mean there's not really any reasoning with someone who disregards the UN is there? You've made your mind up.
It's not really that unbelievable. It's been going on for 3 weeks now, plenty of time to do some counting.
As far as genocide goes, time will tell. But it's certainly heading that way.

“the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group” that’s what it looks like to me.