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Conflict in the Middle East

To think Israel won't exist much longer?

890 replies

sergeantsalt · 28/10/2023 07:56

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

OP posts:
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78
Finlesswonder · 28/10/2023 14:15

@Livinginanotherworld
We aren't buying what you're selling

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 14:18

Finlesswonder · 28/10/2023 14:15

@Livinginanotherworld
We aren't buying what you're selling

Which is the very definition of a bigot.

Which of @Livinginanotherworld statements do you disagree with?

Defiantjazz · 28/10/2023 14:19

Israel absolutely are carpet bombing Gaza and targeting it indiscriminately. They are guilty of collective punishment, which is a war crime, they are using white phosphorus, which is a war crime. They are slaughtering the old, the sick, the women, children and babies who have nowhere to escape to

Pretty much all of that is true tbf.

Finlesswonder · 28/10/2023 14:21

Which is the very definition of a bigot
What is?

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 14:23

Defiantjazz · 28/10/2023 14:19

Israel absolutely are carpet bombing Gaza and targeting it indiscriminately. They are guilty of collective punishment, which is a war crime, they are using white phosphorus, which is a war crime. They are slaughtering the old, the sick, the women, children and babies who have nowhere to escape to

Pretty much all of that is true tbf.

  1. Israel absolutely are carpet bombing Gaza and targeting it indiscriminately.

  2. They are guilty of collective punishment, which is a war crime.

  3. they are using white phosphorus, which is a war crime.

  4. They are slaughtering the old, the sick, the women, children and babies who have nowhere to escape to

  5. The Israeli government and the IDF are war criminals.

I'll add:

  1. Hamas (or at least their 'military' wing) are a bunch of murderous bastards.

Which of those can you possibly dispute?

(sorry @Defiantjazz , obviously I quoted the wrong person)

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 14:24

Finlesswonder · 28/10/2023 14:21

Which is the very definition of a bigot
What is?

a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 28/10/2023 14:25

I have just read that an estimated million people have taken to the streets in London today- it’s taken over 2 hours for the March to cross Westminster bridge. That’s a lot of strong feeling against War and in support of the people of Gaza.

Defiantjazz · 28/10/2023 14:30

(sorry @Defiantjazz , obviously I quoted the wrong person)
Don’t worry, that happens to me a lot for some reason

ACGTHelix · 28/10/2023 14:34

saffronsoup · 28/10/2023 14:02

I didn't let any mask slip - many of the posters on here are Jewish but not Israeli so I was being inclusive in that I was responding to people on this thread who may be Jewish and not Israeli. I have no idea why or how you took offence to that. Many people on this thread have said they are Jewish, inclusing some I earlier responded to.

Of course I know about Egypt. If I went into every nuance, these posts would be incredibly long. Most can understand the situation without needing to speak to every aspect. And if you have taken a look at the Rafah Gate - Israel has bombed it and is controlling the aid being allowed in and passage to and from there as well.

Sometimes, I wonder about the understanding and knowledge, whether it's full academic university knowledge or weather its bbc and newspaper, in conclusion the more detailed the posts the better quality

Finlesswonder · 28/10/2023 14:35

@SoMuchSimpler
A bit like Hamas and those who elect them then?

Rubbishagain · 28/10/2023 14:43

Defiantjazz · 28/10/2023 14:19

Israel absolutely are carpet bombing Gaza and targeting it indiscriminately. They are guilty of collective punishment, which is a war crime, they are using white phosphorus, which is a war crime. They are slaughtering the old, the sick, the women, children and babies who have nowhere to escape to

Pretty much all of that is true tbf.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy8ZMRdN9h3/?igshid=Y2NkYjk0MDhjYg==
this is also still happening and has been for years by illegal settlers. Why is no one asked if Israel and the illegal settlers should be condemned

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy8ZMRdN9h3/?igshid=Y2NkYjk0MDhjYg==

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 14:43

Finlesswonder · 28/10/2023 14:35

@SoMuchSimpler
A bit like Hamas and those who elect them then?

Hamas are obviously bigots, although they've also all grown up under oppression from bigots, which shapes their beliefs.

Israelis, and Jewish people generally, also have a history of oppression, which shapes their outlook similarly.

As for 'those who elect them' - they were elected in 2006. A tiny proportion of the current Gazan population voted for them. But many Gazans have been brought up seeing Hamas as defending them against Israeli aggression.

I said in an earlier post - both sides have been indoctrinated since birth.

saffronsoup · 28/10/2023 14:47

ACGTHelix · 28/10/2023 14:34

Sometimes, I wonder about the understanding and knowledge, whether it's full academic university knowledge or weather its bbc and newspaper, in conclusion the more detailed the posts the better quality

Yes, you are right. WIth the sensitivities of this topic, I guess I should have elaborated further. These threads have a lot of emotion and words are quickly interpreted through those feelings and justly so given war is awful for all involved and many people around the world have been and are being impacted by this one. I doubt many of us truly have a full academic knowledge in that the number of posters on these threads who have research programs specific to the Israel / Palestine conflict are quite few, and finding neutral or balanced or multiple perspective or less biased viewpoints is a further challenge. I have done considerable academic reading on this mostly due to debating my father who is an academic in theology and who holds fairly strong views on this (and has travelled many times to Israel) however I would never say I have full knowledge. I am not even sure that is possible.

eardefender · 28/10/2023 14:54

mollyfolk · 28/10/2023 12:07

the IRA were only part of the problem. The DUP continued to oppose the agreement. Ultimately, and in very short, what got it over the line was public support for peace both in Northern Ireland and the republic (where there was also a referendum)

I am not sure there is much comparison with NI. Conflict is sadly still alive and well and in jeopardy as the unionist side refuse to sit so there is no working government. There are still segregated areas and peace walls (about 46 i think). Security services are not safe at all as we have seen with the leak of their names and stations. It is a very very divided province where terrorism still exists on both sides. A police officer was shot in front of his child. NI is a mess. The GFA was a result of years of work on all sides and main paramilitaries wanting to talk and find peace although this split both sides. The glimmer of hope is the growing population voting for the alliance party which isn't affiliated with either side. Moderate centrist and made up of the many NI who don't really have skin in the game or a living memory of the troubles.
Even if Israel manages to neutralise Hamas the situation will continue for generations. I think that wall will need to stay up for a very very long time. God knows what the solution is.

eardefender · 28/10/2023 15:02

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 14:43

Hamas are obviously bigots, although they've also all grown up under oppression from bigots, which shapes their beliefs.

Israelis, and Jewish people generally, also have a history of oppression, which shapes their outlook similarly.

As for 'those who elect them' - they were elected in 2006. A tiny proportion of the current Gazan population voted for them. But many Gazans have been brought up seeing Hamas as defending them against Israeli aggression.

I said in an earlier post - both sides have been indoctrinated since birth.

I don't agree with this at all. Israel is a democracy and a very mixed society who very often will disagree and argue openly and has different political parties. We have obviously seen this in the demonstrations re the supreme court proposals prior to this awful Hamas attack. Currently Israel has formed a cross party war cabinet.
Gaza is run by an autocratic, terrorist regime. You can see this in all the reporting. Can you find anyone who has been interviewed from Gaza who is allowed to mention Hamas? Hamas are very much in control.

These two sides i would argue are very very different.

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 15:09

I'm not sure exactly what you don't agree with @eardefender ? Nothing you wrote seems to contradict what I wrote?

The cross-party consensus in Israeli politics at the moment seems to be that it's OK to bomb the shit out of a region where 75% of the population are women and children, apparently in order to defeat a small minority of nutters who they know are sheltering in underground tunnels anyway.

eardefender · 28/10/2023 15:13

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 15:09

I'm not sure exactly what you don't agree with @eardefender ? Nothing you wrote seems to contradict what I wrote?

The cross-party consensus in Israeli politics at the moment seems to be that it's OK to bomb the shit out of a region where 75% of the population are women and children, apparently in order to defeat a small minority of nutters who they know are sheltering in underground tunnels anyway.

You were comparing Hamas and Israel and trying to say they are similar, they are not, as i have tried to demonstrate.

Israel is bombing the north, 2 weeks ago they told civilians to leave. Why are there so many children there? Human Shields and an exaggeration of the numbers by Hamas.

Hamas terrorise their own people. Garzans are better off without them.

SammyScrounge · 28/10/2023 15:19

TwilightSkies · 28/10/2023 08:38

If Israel didn’t exist how would the defence industry rip off the American taxpayer to extent that it does. Conflict is needed for that industry to flourish.

Exactly!

Also, where are all the videos of Israeli’s being attacked/bombed? I haven’t seen a single one.

We saw many the night Hamas attacked Israel. Around 4,000.

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 15:22

@TwilightSkies
Here is a video of a rocket hitting a residential building.

Please note the 153 laughing emojis and then tell me people don't support Hamas.

OhHelloTheres · 28/10/2023 15:23

https://fb.watch/nWkTIlvhpA/?mibextid=j8LeHn

Forgot to add the link 🤦🏻‍♀️

SoMuchSimpler · 28/10/2023 15:27

eardefender · 28/10/2023 15:13

You were comparing Hamas and Israel and trying to say they are similar, they are not, as i have tried to demonstrate.

Israel is bombing the north, 2 weeks ago they told civilians to leave. Why are there so many children there? Human Shields and an exaggeration of the numbers by Hamas.

Hamas terrorise their own people. Garzans are better off without them.

No, I was saying that supporters of both sides have been indoctrinated from birth to grow up as bigots. Israel's actions of the last 3 weeks are as bad as, if not worse than, Hamas' 3 weeks ago. They're both disgusting.

Israel is bombing the whole of Gaza, not just the North. You know that.

You don't know that Hamas are exaggerating casualties. Independent sources have said that Hamas don't usually exaggerate casualties.

Why are there so many children there?

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
Parkingt111 · 28/10/2023 15:47

There is no safe place in Gaza
This is why this war is like no other happening right now
The people have nowhere to go where they can say is safe and will not be killed
They are being butchered in a huge cage from land, air and sea
If they are hit or injured by a strike they can't even call an ambulance
Thousands still stuck under the rubble
Bakeries being bombed when food is already so scarce
Women who can't even reach the hospitals to give birth
Many children suffering from illnesses from drinking contaminated water and I can go on.

Israel has gone far beyond self defence. This is collective punishment. This is politics because Netanyahu knows his days are numbered in power

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
To think Israel won't exist much longer?
Auvergne63 · 28/10/2023 16:17

Wonkasworld · 28/10/2023 14:14

Whereas you've got it valley sussed, eh. The rest of us are sheep. Ironic.

She/he just stating facts.

SerafinasGoose · 28/10/2023 16:30

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/10/2023 13:13

I've often said the same, but for this to work would mean all of those involved respecting the others equally - and unfortunately the sole purpose of the leaders of one group is, and has always been, to make sure the other no longer exists

But this is patently untrue. Conversely, it's hopelessly oversimplifying the issue, and to claim otherwise is conveniently to ignore over 7 decades of history that have passed between the mandate and now. It would be to forget how Hamas really came about - in opposition to Yasser Arafat, the PLO and Fatah who were too secular and too compromising for their liking. When ANO split off, becoming notorious as one of the most vicious, bloodthirsty terrorist organizations on the face of the planet, it didn't take long to clarify that Abu Nidal didn't give a fuck about Palestine, any more than he gave a fuck about religion, or even ideology for that matter. That's why he killed many of Arafat's top men, turned on his own side, and slaughtered about 600 of his own soldiers.

This isn't to revere Arafat as some kind of saint either - he perpetrated some indefensible acts himself - but in the end proved willing to compromise. He and Israeli PM Rabin shaking hands at the moment of the Oslo Accords promised to be a world-changing moment: the beginnings of a two state solution amid the acknowledgement that both nations had a right to exist, and both men received the Nobel peace prize for their efforts. Peace never came. Arafat would end up holed up in a compound in Gaza, and Rabin was assassinated, not by Hamas, but by the far right on his own side. This is why the silly 'my side, your side' tribalism looks so crude and silly in such a context. It isn't so straightforward as 'four legs good, two legs bad'. It isn't Hamas slaughtering Israelis, and Israel doing likewise to the Palestinians. The issue is the extremists on both sides - including Netanyahu - who want to kill not only the other side but also anyone on their own side who opposes them. This poses real problems when the answer to this conflict needs to come from the moderates on both sides. It's been tried. Look at where that ended up.

There are some other gems on this thread: such as (Palestinians who accepted the state of Israel and live well and with more rights within Israel than they would anywhere else in ME). You've got to be kidding. Have you been to Jerusalem, seen how Palestinians live there, seen how they're crammed into the most impoverished regions, denied basic rights and not even allowed to call themselves Palestinians, but 'Israeli Arabs?' Imagine how offensive that would be if applied to any ethnic group in the UK?

Hamas are terrorists. Their actions are indefensible. The Netanyahu government are war criminals. Their actions are also indefenensible. It's embarrassing how little people are aware of the huge complexities underpinning this conflict before they cheerfully nail their colours to one particular mast, and in doing so claim all the faults are on one side.

And the greatest complexity of all is that for 6000 years, Mediterranean and Semitic tribes have crossed paths, fought and intermarried in the region surrounding Jerusalem. The abiding continuinties of that region are cultural conflict, in terms of the later Abrahamic faiths that sprung up there, religious conflict, and for most of that time and in most of those places, the subjugation of women. For this to change, IMO there'd have to be little short of a seismic shift in power relations on this planet, starting with the superpowers. Because what precipitated the latest Hamas attack? Of course. Saudi were on the brink of recognising the Israeli state.

A two-state solution is so far from the desired outcome for so many in and beyond that region as to make it all-but an impossibility. No words can express how much I want to be wrong.

daytriptovulcan · 28/10/2023 16:47

Sorry but this is hysterical nonsense. Israel is definitely not the underdog.