Justifying the rape of women

[armchairactivist1]

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

There is no sane doubting of the horror inflicted on 7/10 or in Gaza in the weeks since.

The issues around details of the horror to me aren't really important, theres more than enough to go round, far, far too much.

There are issues with the credibility of reports from both sides. Hamas are known liars but Israels hands are far from clean either.

Posts on official Israeli government accounts have been widely debunked and labelled disinformation by reputable news outlets across the West.
The IDF have many times made false claims or denials in the past that they've much later admitted to.

Its not possible, certainly not wise to accept anything face value from the Israeli gov, the IDF and certainly not Hamas.

That said there are many, many reports from aid agencies and journalists independent from both in Israel, Gaza and increasingly the West Bank.

On the casualty figures the Gaza health authority works parallel with Hamas not for Hamas. They are obviously connected but there's is a level of trust in the figures because historically, in past conflicts their numbers have been very close to the UNs and the IDFs own figures.

As a rough metric the verifiable deaths of UN workers as a proportion of total UN workers in Gaza is similar (actually slightly more) to the health authorities figures as a proportion of the total population and actually suggests the indescriminate nature of the deaths.

There's an awful lot of discussion about what is credible.

It goes without saying that sexual violence as a weapon can never be justified, not any sexual violence.

This.

Mass gaslighting, nothing to see say some or completely deny it happened. To some rapes were made up, torture didn't happen. Jewish people are right to feel afraid when whatever they say is denied.

What is going on with mumsnet??!!! You have multiple threads started every day comparing Israelis to Nazis, accusing them of genocide and having 'mature' discussions of 'alternative' ways of viewing Hamas and their motives (because calling people who engage in mass message killings 'terrorists' is just hysteria, right?). But I posted to say that Hamas were actually worse than the Nazis because at least the Nazis tried to hide what they were doing (a point that many Jewish commentators have made since Oct 7) and I got deleted! That's right, comparing Israelis to Nazis is just fine on mumsnet, but comparing Hamas to Nazis is offensive??!!!

I have no idea, @firstpasttheposter . I don't normally get sucked into making so many posts, but I just can't bear to see the bullying on here and the outrageous twisting of reality. I'm not Jewish and I find this very, very frightening.

Remember a few years ago when the body of the Manchester stadium suicide bomber remained unburied for weeks because no mosque in Britain would have anything to do with burying him? There was no 'mature' discussion about whether he might have had a point, or whether British foreign policy was really to blame. British people used to know right from wrong.

The fact is that many people who consider themselves liberal or "progressive", even if Women , Black or Gay have a lot of tolerance for Islamofascism.
I can understand a leftist being so inclined as I have yet to know one who isn't authoritarian and non sneering towards Classic Liberalism, due to being liberal.
And I suspect that many on the Right wing would be more openly tolerant if so many Muslims weren't Eastern heritage.
But it is the acceptance of cultural Islamofascism in and outside of the West by Liberals that has put the battery in the back of its many overt and covert proponents on The West.
And it goes without saying that Labour decided since the time of Tony Blair that the Muslim vote is more important than assimilation.
Well....the non Black Muslim vote. Because the Islamofascism and block voting doesn't come from the West African or long time pre 1930s lineage West Country and Welsh Somali heritage Muslims as far as I know.
It is mainly a South Asian Muslim phenomena.
I cannot claim to have much social connection with many non Arab White Muslims of Indo European or South Eastern European heritage.
But liberals or Labourites have too many who do not include Islamofascism on any "oppression/ oppressors" strata.
And it is that loophole within which Islamofascists place themselves in the West.

People on mn deny, miminise, say that it wasnt proven, doubt the stories or saynshow me the link of the rapes, killings, torture and burning of Israeli people at the festival and kibbutz.

However, believe everything that comes from Gaza.

Some play a numbers game.

Others deny anti semitism or miminise it or say that on their march all was good and dandy whilst wandering along with people with flags of a country showing support for just those people then call them 'peace marches'. Not neutral at all but failing to see that.

People fall over themselves with excuses for why Hamas did what they did.

They shout the hospital is bombed over and over even when it is clear it is standing. They shout genocide without any understanding of the term. They use emotional language to stir more hatred yet excuse the hatred from terrorism.

If Israel really wanted to flatten the hospitals completely it could have done ages ago. If terrorists do exist under the hospital then few appear to call out the sick minds of the terrorists.

Too many have died in this war. Its an awful tragedy. Yet it appears to be a useful shield for hatred and hate speech. A people decimated by the holocaust are surrounded by enemies. Tge enemies wish to wipe them out. I'm not sure if that was us we would let them either.

The innocent children are killed and used as pawns by evil around them.

I don't know the answer and hope that international mediation can happen but as far as this country goes, people should feel safe here and the rise in extremists speak in this country should be of concern.

"People on mn deny, miminise, say that it wasnt proven, doubt the stories or saynshow me the link of the rapes, killings, torture and burning of Israeli people at the festival and kibbutz.

However, believe everything that comes from Gaza."

@Noelectricheating Have you seen the videos of what's happening in Gaza? There must be thousands of them. Dead children, children with limbs blown off, children with their skulls blown off. Tiny, lifeless babies. Children so traumatised they can't stop shaking.

Of course we believe what's coming out of Gaza. We've seen it with our own eyes.

The horror of what is happening in Gaza is proven beyond doubt.

No one is saying that the October 7th attack wasn't horrifying. Of course it was.

However some of the claims being made are just that. Claims. There appears to be no independent, verifiable evidence off mass rapes and beheaded babies.

Israel has lied so much over the past month that I think people can be forgiven for being sceptical.

There is a lot more appetite on the Gazan side to publish footage of the dead and maimed victims. The Israeli officials have taken a different approach to what is shown, and sought relatives permission, blurred images etc.

Most of the actual Hamas recordings I personally saw were right at the start, they have mostly been deleted from social media now.

The Israelis have shown screenings to global officials and selected media, which are uncensored or less censored.

Perhaps this is why.

This thread was stated about sexual violence and rape. It's not often that rape has a witness. In other contexts on mumsnet most women come from a default position of believing and supporting women; 'I believe her'. I do wonder if we are extending that same approach to Israeli women who were brutalised and raped. I don't think we are.

And yes, I think mumsnet users in general have been far too quick to try to excuse and explain the horrendous terrorist atrocities visited on Israel. Victim blaming at its worst and at best unhelpful at worst antisemitic. We should be able to condemn these atrocities unequivocally and totally. There is no excuse for them.

No I haven't seen the videos of dead children in Gaza.
I know children are dying I don't need to search for videos. It's tragic.

This thread is about not believing rape claims of women or minimising them, etc. A site mainly for women not believing women. I don't need to see a video of the rape if a woman to believe her.

This news reporter realised, in the middle of an interview with parents, that he had seen footage of their son with his left forearm blown off, being taken by truck to Gaza.

I actually saw that video yesterday. It was awful.

This thread is about not believing rape claims of women or minimising them, etc. A site mainly for women not believing women. I don't need to see a video of the rape if a woman to believe her.

The denial about what happened on 7th October is absolutely mind boggling and I don't just mean denial of rape. I've never seen anything like it and I'm 67. I seriously wonder just what people would classify as independent and verifiable, do they actually want to see videos of the events? Frankly I've seen quite a bit of the stuff that was available on Twitter and that's more than enough for me. Based on the horror of that, I don't doubt for one moment that what people are saying is generally true.

I'm also sure there will be an inquiry with reports from pathologists, first responders etc.

I feel very... afraid actually, at the response to October 7th and the demand for evidence of rapes before people will believe the people who witnessed them. I've seen interviews with survivors, seriously traumatised people who feel clearly still afraid and traumatised and don't really want to go into the level of detail some of the people here are demanding before they'll believe it. Its the same when people want to discuss the Pro Palestine marches around the world and the blatant anti semitism occurring and the pro Hamas messages, people dismiss it, its just a tieeny tiny amount etc when that is not the case at all. My husband and I watched a compilation of footage from marches across the world, and we sat in stone cold silence. I felt sick watching it. There was so much at the London ones, not a tiny fringe at all, but a lot of people shouting horrible things, saying Hamas are freedom fighters, Hitler had the right idea, how they felt so happy watching videos of disgusting things being done to Israelis, jews as they actually said... I still fell quite shaken by it actually and I am dismayed at the moderating of the discussions here. All fuelling this hideous hatred of jewish people. I would feel so afraid if I was jewish. It frightens me.

@Iwantcakeeveryday
I agree completely, especially about the moderation. Posters are free to make whatever claims they want on here, it's become an absolute frenzy of hate and misinformation. I can't quite believe the wide-eyed faux naivety of posters who claim there's no proof of what happened on October 7th. It was a few weeks ago, if you're posting on this board (and you haven't been living under a rock) there is zero excuse for minimising and denying what we all remember Hamas proudly filming and taking full credit for. I don't understand why mumsnet allows it to continue tbh.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1725124238724448497

For anyone questioning the rapes and the brutalisation of women, here you go. Happy now? Or do you still believe that shit that they were rushing her to hospital in Gaza?
Anyone else I'd suggest not clicking and upsetting yourself.

It was seeing the footage and images from this particular atrocity that made me realise on a visceral level what Hamas are, and leaving even all else aside, they are the enemy of women.

I did also read that the IDF say they have killed one of the perpetrators and that's one bit of violence I frankly would enjoy seeing.

I don't understand why mumsnet allows it to continue tbh.

At this point, this section should just be called I Hate Israel.

Yeah, its unreal to watch....

I think the thing is, to balance things out we would have to start threads about how evil Hamas are, and post "important updates!!!" every 5 seconds with pictures from trash sites like X and TikTok, and hastily hashed-up graphics from Facebook etc, illustrating crazy stuff Hamas leaders have said, and their cruelty and violence.

Not only would this be a full-time job, but it's clearly just a brainless thing to do, which is why we don't bother.

Also, as PPs have said, we try to respect the dead. Unlike those who parade baby corpses at every opportunity.

I think MN are in a difficult position because they are trying to allow each "side" to express its position and you can't really exercise quality control in that.

Or at least, you could, but you'd have to acquaint yourself with more detail than is normally required to monitor posts.

I take your point but I'm talking about really the basic facts of the worst atrocity against Jewish people since the Holocaust. If posts about "fake baby stories!!" don't merit a deletion then maybe they should just ban all posts about Israel/Palestine, because clearly they don't have the wherewithal to spot obvious trolling.