How effective is Israeli bombing, anyway?

[mushti]

According to Hamas figures, Israel has dropped 12,000 tonnes of explosives on Gaza. 6000 people have died.

Hamas terrorists killed 1400 Jews with just what they could carry on trucks and motorbikes.

It almost looks like Israel is trying to minimize casualties, doesn't it?

I would love for these international journalists to have access to Gaza and witness the total destruction too, you know for symmetry.
instead of reporting from behind the wall,
but since there is very high chance they might get killed , it won’t happen.

I really don’t understand this .
people were killed on the 7th , and have been killed everyday ever since , that’s 19 days straight of non stop killing.
what makes Israelis lives more valuable than Palestinians?

all of this needs to stop , people are turning into bloodthirsty psychopaths.

Nowhere is safe in Gaza” – UN resident and humanitarian coordinator in Palestine
**
In a statement published today, Lynn Hastings calls for civilians to be protected and allowed the essentials to survive, regardless of their location. She also calls for “all hostages” to be released immediately and unconditionally.
“When the evacuation routes are bombed, when people north as well as south are caught up in hostilities, when the essentials for survival are lacking, and when there are no assurances for return, people are left with nothing but impossible choices,” says Hastings, a senior UN aid official. “Nowhere is safe in Gaza.”

They can see the destruction they just choose not to report it. There are heaps of amazing citizen and local journalists who have been documenting the daily atrocities in Gaza- they are all over instagram. Mainstream media just won’t show these images.

@mushti are you for real ?? They are constantly bombing gaza is not the same

Don't bother with her. I can't understand how @mnhq have not banned this poster

I don’t see any evidence of IDF trying to minimise civilian casualties especially since after bombing norther Gaza, they told people to evacuate south and then immediately intensified their bombing of the South. There is more bombing going on in the south than the north because IDF is doing raids into north Gaza with ground troops and you wouldn’t want to bomb your own troops.

I think far more have been killed than the figures being reported indicate. Think the death toll is mostly being logged by bodies that get to a hospital or injured who die in a hospital. Similar to Afghanistan, many piles of rubble will simply become the cairns on the graves of those families dead under the remains of their homes.

12,000 tonnes is massive over a span of two weeks.

To compare the Blitz in WWII was ~24,000 tonnes dropped over 10 months (From October 7th, 1940, to June 6th, 1941,) on London.
“It is estimated that the Luftwaffe dropped around 24,000 tonnes of high explosives on London during The Blitz” https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/incredible-map-shows-bombs-were-17128000

Here’s the BBC on the Blitz
“by the end of the Blitz, around 30,000 Londoners would be left dead, with another 50,000 injured. Fortunately, millions of children, mothers, patients and pensioners had already been evacuated to the countryside.”

There is no evacuation for Gazans. There are no bomb shelters for Gazans. And they have endured half our “Blitz” in a fraction of the time.

The population is likely a lot less than the 2.3 million we started with. Deaths have started to tick upwards in the daily reports as is to be expected when denial of medical aid, including fuel to generate electricity for hospitals and petrol for ambulances to function, including denial of clean drinking water. The injured from last week are now starting to succumb to their wounds in much greater numbers. Deaths from dehydration and starvation are only a matter of weeks away. With denial of fuel for electricity- the sewage systems are not working- raw shit is perfect breeding ground for cholera which could quite literally kill thousands a day if it takes hold.

The International leaders are doing nothing meaningful to avert this.

IDF has not been using only JDAMs per Business Insider:
https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-jets-devastate-gaza-air-220001276.html
”Israeli fighter aircraft have been bombing the Gaza Strip, often with precision-guided weapons such as Joint Direct Attack Munitions, but photos and videos posted by the Israeli Air Force suggest it's also using less accurate, unguided munitions, military analysts told Insider.

Unguided bombs have their uses, but in a densely packed area such as Gaza, there's potential for damage outside a target area and civilian casualties.
Last week [12 Oct], the Israeli Air Force posted photos on X, the social-media platform formerly known as Twitter, appearing to show a bomb being loaded onto an aircraft and a fighter jet already armed. In both of the photos, the munitions appeared to be unguided.”
”An Israeli Air Force video posted Monday [16 Oct] also seemed to show fighter jets armed with unguided bombs ahead of footage of airstrikes.”

“Michael Bohnert, an engineer and analyst at the Rand Corporation, said that in the images, there was no visible GPS-guided JDAM kit or laser-guided Paveway kit. "The bomb in this picture is unguided and likely highly inaccurate," he said.”

”Justin Bronk, a senior research fellow for airpower and military technology at the Royal United Services Institute think tank who's also a professor at the Royal Norwegian Air Force Academy, also identified the bomb as a 750-lb M117 dumb bomb.”

”Bronk said unguided bombs would normally be used in a more open area where targets are more dispersed, and the use wasn't indiscriminate, but if you're using them against targets in a built-up area, then it is almost by definition indiscriminate, particularly when using this older style of unguided bomb with a much higher drag design."

IDF hasn’t and isn’t doing precision bombing of Gaza.

I said to myself I wouldn't engage with this poster following horrific previous posts.

However.

You mention thermonuclear weapons. The IDF being the bigger army. You do know Iran is nuclear capable too? They have said they won't stand back if a ground invasion goes ahead - you really, REALLY don't think there won't be a retaliation in kind if nuclear weapons are deployed?

The IDF is the bigger army against Palestine. Not against the rest of the Middle East.

Your sentiments really show a lack of understanding that such actions from the IDF put Israeli citizens in danger. Unlike yourself, the majority of posters don't want to see any civilians harmed.

All being said, I don't expect you to be anything but cold and display a "my dad is bigger and can beat up your dad" sort of attitude.

The IDF is the bigger army against Palestine. Not against the rest of the Middle East.

Iran is a threat; the rest of the middle east not so much. The US has two carrier groups in the Mediterranean, which is helpful.

such actions from the IDF put Israeli citizens in danger

I see that. But you must also see that actions from Hamas put Palestinian civilians in danger. The danger to the Palestinians is very much more present and real.

I know that Hamas put civilians in danger too, of course they do. I don't agree with your eye for an eye logic, though.
In this case, it has gone beyond defence and retaliation. The reasoning seems to be the government will get away with it, so why not.
Although on that note, for the first time in a long time, perhaps ever, public condemnation of the actions of the Israeli government is strong and increasing daily.

It really breaks my heart seeing posters dismiss Palestinians casualties as just collateral damages, or Hamases fault . Yesterday , I saw video of a young girl celebrating her graduation with her family , she looked so happy and so young and full of dreams and aspirations, she was killed a long with her pregnant mother.

And There are thousands and thousands of similar stories , the framed pictures found under the rubbles tell a completely different narrative to the one Israel is pushing , pictures of newlyweds , parents attending their children’s graduations , grandparents with their grandchildren, family gatherings. Pictures found in any household.

its so unfair, it’s like nothing matters after the 6th of October , and we are supposed to look away and stay quiet, otherwise we’re antiemetic ? I know many Jewish people and I know that’s not what they believe in.

there's a good reason Israeli govt want to control the narrative so they don't encounter any criticism.

I was reading an article yesterday about a website set up to target tons of Pro-palestine protesters and make them unemployable or prevented from entering educational courses because they are deemed "anti semitic", I was deeply shocked at what I read.

https://theintercept.com/2018/11/22/israel-boycott-canary-mission-blacklist/

Nice try, Netanyahu is done. His wet dream of normalizing relations with Saudi gone. His strategy of minimizing the conflict and gradual land grab that no one notices is done. He has a lot to answer for re the Israeli public, including why the Israeli occupying forces allegedly took 6 hours to respond to Hamas’s attack.

Yep, I think what mushti doesn't realise is just how strong public sentiment is against the actions of the IDF. Nothing compared to "the usual" condemnation. I'd say that many sources that are usually pro-Israeli government have turned, even Biden isn't 100% behind them, the UN definitely not. The crazed yelling about how the UN won't be granted Visas etc. also just makes those government members sound even more deranged.

Joe Biden moved a second carrier battle group to the Mediterranean explicitly to support Israel, and approved another $60B dollars of military aid. I think Israel is quite happy with that kind of not-100% support.

The UN is an irrelevance to Israel; it's been driven by anti-Israel countries for so long that nobody in Israel takes any notice of it.

It's likely that Netanyahu will have to leave office soon - that's quite true.

Saudi will normalize relations within 12 months of Hamas being destroyed.

"Bronk said unguided bombs would normally be used in a more open area where targets are more dispersed, and the use wasn't indiscriminate, but if you're using them against targets in a built-up area, then it is almost by definition indiscriminate,"

Talking of unguided and indiscriminate,:

https://rocketalert.live/

Are israeli supporters saying these videos are fake ?

Some loons do but not nearly as many as those who deny or are demanding proof of what happened on the 7th of October. Unfortunately I saw some of the Hamas footage which ended up on Twitter, actually on the day. Not the worst but what I saw was utterly horrific.

I'd like to think it's because people can't believe that anyone could do such terrible things but more often than not it's just the usual "Israel is lying". I think it's very sad that they actually had to have a screening for journalists and still some people won't believe them.

So I don't question the videos from Gaza because I find it abhorrent when people do it from the other side.

@mushti Thanks for starting this thread, it is interesting to hear things discussed from a military strategy perspective instead of just reactions to clickbait gore porn.

I think it's very sad that they actually had to have a screening for journalists and still some people won't believe them.

well having a screening of that nature, a sort of atrocity highlights reel, is a bit of an odd thing to do really.

I choose not to believe the bit about beheaded babies but that’s probably more for the sake of my sanity.

Perhaps Israel should hand back Palestine to the Palestinians, just a thought.

@ahtehnai

• The Doppler shifted sound heard is consistent with a JDAM munition, recorded multiple times in use during other campaigns abroad

Given JDAM is a kit that comes in various forms and gets bolted onto various munitions of various sizes I'm not sure the claim that it has got some form of unique signature has much if any credibility.

@Surreyclaire there was ONE election and that was 17/18 years ago. Get your facts straight.