I’m not saying I’m pro Israel, however..:

[Lelophants]

Surely most people can understand that if Israel was Great Britain and Hamas came and massacred children and innocent people in early October, then Great Britain would go to war and absolutely hammer them back? You just have to look at the response to any other war we’ve had. Do you really think the British government would behave perfectly in this situation? Do you think any western nation would do anything else in response to such an attack? I can genuinely see British people screaming in the streets to murder all babies of Hamas if this was the case. (Not saying it’s right!! I just don’t think we would be better in any way!!)

Personally I find this a really complicated conflict due to the deep history and I feel deeply sorry for civilians on each side.

Of course I would. But I don’t think Israel is doing that at all.

Of course I would

There you go. You agree that the idea of ‘so what if the terrorist lives’ in pp is unlikely to be the norm.

It’s normal to not want more atrocities to be a possibility.

Having lived through the "troubles" with the IRA, your premise is wholly incorrect.

As for being Pro-Israel go for, neither side is covering themselves in glory with their actions

I wouldn’t want more atrocities, no. Who would? But committing atrocities is precisely what Israel is doing. Thousands of them.

The posters saying that Israel is stopping terrorists and atrocities are talking nonsense. They’re not stopping terrorists at all. All they’re doing is committing multiple acts of terrorism themselves.

There’ll be posters saying how dare you say Israel is committing terrorist acts. But that’s precisely what they’re doing. Illegally murdering thousands of innocent children.

And by creating so much anger in the ME they are making the world less safe for Israel and for everyone.

My point was a broad one in response to pp. which you responded to

The idea people would be ok with terrorists remaining is for the birds.

Regardless of your view on Israel, of which you have posted many, anyone who takes a moment to think would understand that existing with a threat of that barbarity is not wanted.

You can then go into your Israel criticism as you wish but I stand by it. Wherever we are most would not say ‘so what if the terrorist lives’

Even you haven’t.

I think you'll find that there are few scholars of interethnic conflict who will say that murdering children is a way to end the cycle of violence.

What they're doing won't even work. Hell, it would cause less suffering to flatten the Middle East in one fell swoop than to keep going like this.

It still doesn’t back up the claim that anyone would say ‘so what if the terrorists live’

Scholars or not that’s pretty basic in terms of understanding

Israel hasn't thought that far ahead. They're basically incapable of appreciating how much of a clusterfuck they're in, so the US pumped the brakes until they get more assets in the region, because they're already taking pot shots against their naval and army units in the area.

If anyone really wanted to make Israel and the US sweat, now would be the time to act. They have literally told the world they do not have the capacity to defend their bases or Israel right now.

Israel is “just defending itself”
….isn’t it?

I've been thinking this for a while.

No normal nation has settlers. That's what apartheid colonialists have.

And yes, wiping out Gazans and starting over with high rise condos is a thing people in the Israeli gov't have said.

Even Biden criticised the extreme settlers today

Biden offers rare criticism of 'extremist settlers' in West BankThe US president has offered a rare criticism of Israeli settlers in the West Bank, saying they are "attacking Palestinians".
Joe Biden has repeatedly said Israel needs to defend itself against Hamas, while protecting innocent civilians in Gaza.
"I continue to be alarmed about extremist settlers attacking Palestinians in the West Bank," Mr Biden said during a news conference.

"They're attacking Palestinians in places that they're entitled to be."

This.

Talking about the settlers...i didn't realise till i heard it on the news that the Israel communities have safe rooms in their houses. I mean, if you need a safe room you really shouldn't be living there, surely??

Jews were always going to need some form of 'safe room' in one form or another from the time they declared their independence and were immediately attacked by all of their Arab neighbours. But their alternative was to continue to live indefinitely as second class citizens under the rule of those who viewed them as inferior and who had subjected them to dhimmi status for centuries, persecuted and massacred them. Should an oppressed group simply cave in to their oppressor's demands to stay submissive to stay safe? Isn't that a matter for them to decide?

I think you need to rethink your stance on this. It's an example of victim blaming. Unless you also think that women deserve getting raped if they wear short skirts, I don't understand why you think Israelis should leave because people want them killed.

To be clear, it's not just the settlers who have safe rooms. It's all of Israel. They want to eradicate all of Israel. Is that really ok with you?

A lot of Israelis and Jewish people around the world (including many people in my family) don't agree with the behaviour of the settlers. Although Israel has the right to exist and to defend itself, especially after such horrific brutality, the behaviour of these settlers isn't the way.

Yes I thought it a strange take. If a group need a safe room, not just settlers, then you might look to the extreme acts carried out by the terrorists informing why

My sister in law who lives near Tel Aviv also has a safe room, it isalegal requirement for all new buildings in Israel. On the other side of the world, Singaporeans are also required by law to have 'safe rooms' or bomb shelters as we call them despite never having been attacked. They are much smaller more like a store room than an actual room.

The israeli approach is actually much smarter, the safe room is usually a room that is used as a bedroom or study. So it isn't just used for war. In my sister in law's case, her safe room is the master bedroom so when there is a siren, she just picks up her baby and goes to the bedroom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkhav_Mugan

In addition a lot of the people in the border communities are also left wing people living in communal establishments called kibbutz. They live near gaza cos they believe in living harmoniously with their neighbours and also many of these kibbutz preceded the founding of Israel- communal farms bought by Jewish people to farm the land. The first kibbutz were a utopian vision of communal living, everyone farmed the land and shared communal facilities; initially the children were even housed separately in children houses so women didn't need to take on the full burden of childcare. Now many kibbutz don't just engage in agriculture but in a wide range of economic sectors including manufacturing and tourism, and many people who live in kibbutz also work outside the community, and families now live together but share facilities like swimming pool,laundry , gardens etc.

I think the real question is why are these extreme settlers given the free pass to move to the west bank?
Surely they should be moving to Israel

Parking the Israeli government is the most right wing in Israel's history. I don't live in Israel, and therefore can't speak for Israelis, but it seems like the issue has been controversial and divisive there for quite a few years now, understandably.

He’s voted in (or out) I assume.