I’m not saying I’m pro Israel, however..:

[Lelophants]

Surely most people can understand that if Israel was Great Britain and Hamas came and massacred children and innocent people in early October, then Great Britain would go to war and absolutely hammer them back? You just have to look at the response to any other war we’ve had. Do you really think the British government would behave perfectly in this situation? Do you think any western nation would do anything else in response to such an attack? I can genuinely see British people screaming in the streets to murder all babies of Hamas if this was the case. (Not saying it’s right!! I just don’t think we would be better in any way!!)

Personally I find this a really complicated conflict due to the deep history and I feel deeply sorry for civilians on each side.

@flufferknutter
Did you know that the Palestinians were offered a two state solution several times, on very good terms, and every time they refused?

Why?
Because their leaders don't want a two state solution.

I've just read the Hamas Doctrine (never thought I would do that), that is not what is says.
https://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2023/oct/19/doctrine-hamas

In conflict there are several solutions
An eye for an eye
or
What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour

Yup

The difference here is that there would have been call to war long before 75 years if it was the UK, and war would have been waged. I don’t recall people screaming in the streets to kill babies following any terrorist attacks in the UK and would like to think no event could drive me to wish death upon innocent babies.

So supporting those civilians who may also be Muslim is supporting jihad?
Or is that all Muslims? On a personal level I am very interested to hear what you have to say.

Israel rejected the two state solution in 2013

I agree. If we are invaded we fight back. It was the same when ISIS and Al Q started bombing us here - US/UK took the fight to the homelands and went after those responsible.

Israel is a liberal democracy with good laws. The states which surround it are utterly awful and need to learn lessons from the UK and Israel about how to run a country properly and treat people properly. They should be humbly learning about democracy not invading Israel and murdering babies.

@Whu
Why is that racist retoric?
It's quite clear that I'm not taking about all Muslims.
I am taking about Hamas.
Surely you will agree that Hamas are radical Islamists?

Isreal is an apartheid and racist state.

@ChickHenLittle
I am talking here about Hamas.
Not ALL Muslims.

I think that was part of the plan via the excessive bombing of Gaza and the direction to move South.

Anthony Blinken the American secretary of state and other parties were pressuring Egypt and other adjoining countries to open their borders. Hence Sisi and the King of Jordans strong response (basically saying f. off) to the Americans.

The Arab league countries have been communicating with Russia and China, who have basically said that the root of this problem is the failure of American Diplomacy. The BRICS and Arab countries are standing together with a call to implement the UN resolution on 1967 lines.

America voting twice against the UN resolutions for a humanitarian ceasefire lost it a lot of respect (plus Bidens disaster of a trip last week).

I think with public pressure the West is going to be embarrassed into pushing negotiations (as they can't possibly allow China and Russia to co-ordinate that).

Stop the faux naïveté.
You didn’t even mention Hamas in the post I was referring to, just Palestine.
You are conflating support of Palestinian civilians with support of Islamic jihad.

when they're thinking there supporting Palestine.
And how they will react when islamic Jihad is going to come knocking on their door.

You said supporting Palestine. At least don't shy away from it.
So you think either all Palestinians are Hamas, or all Palestinians want to "Islamic jihad"?

Mumsnet agreed with me. Thankfully they have deleted your disgusting dog whistle post.
Thank you admin.

That was quick, thank you MNHQ.

The Israelis didn't 'just come'. There were Jews living in the area the entire time, as second class citizens under Islamic dhimmi rules for centuries. The Arabs, the native Christians and the native Jews were all offered their own states when it came time to carve up the portion of the Ottoman Empire known as the Palestine Mandate. The Arabs refused repeatedly every single proposal to give either of their former dhimmi populations a single square inch of what they viewed as their territory for their states.

Yes I definitely think that some people are confused and they think they are supporting Palestine while in fact they are supporting Hamas.
What good has Hamas done for Palestine? You tell me.

You still claiming Israel bombed that hospital and killed 500 people? Any other communications from Hamas you'd like to pass on?

Freedom house is downgrading it to a flawed democracy fyi.

Read that letter in the FT written by top UK Jewish lawyers.. it raised significant concern on Israel's conduct. I say this as someone with family with Israel and who is jewish- I am invested but I have not lost my humanity.

No, that's not how settled, peaceful countries work. We don't punish child killers by killing their kids.

That would be barbaric, inhumane and criminal.

No-one has said Hamas has done any good for Palestine, that I can see.

Could you explain how people are confused? How could supporting Palestinian civilians mean supporting Hamas?

You have no business offering solutions to conflicts you don't understand.

'Footage of senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar calling for world domination has resurfaced online.

“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December of 2022,

“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.'

WATCH: Israel is only the first target, warns Hamas commander - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

Who is confused?? Who is supporting Hamas??

Is mourning 5000 dead Palestinians HALF OF THEM CHILDREN supporting Hamas??

Is wanting aid, water and food to flow to Gaza supporting Hamas?

Is calling out Israeli war crimes supporting Hamas?

Is wanting Palestinians to LIVE supporting Hamas?

You have shown your colours now stop. Please.

It’s looking more likely that Israel has broken many international laws by deliberately depriving the Palestinian people of basics of life - food, water and access to medical care. I hope this is investigated.

Oh there's a lot more than 100 years of oppression as a backdrop to this but for some odd reason the pro-Palestinian side are reluctant to talk about anything pre-1948. Or why the Jews wanted their own state.

After the Islamic conquest all conquered non-muslim inhabitants were second-class citizens, dhimmis. This is an explicitly religious supremacist imperialist system/protection racket. It even involved gold stars for the Jews at times. This lasted for centuries. It was only formally ended in the Ottoman Empire around 1860, and then only because the Europeans coerced them into ending it after the Ottomans lost the Crimean war.

The remnants of this system remain in Islamic states to this day, including in Qatar where non-muslims remain second class citizens. Qatar not coincidentally funds Hamas.