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Conflict in the Middle East

What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?

488 replies

flufferknutter · 20/10/2023 15:49

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

I'm sorry for the DM link. I want to know what is meant by Israel 'ceasing responsibility for life' means though. I don't understand.

Israeli defence minister reveals plans for 'three-phase war' in Gaza

Defence Minister Yoav Gallant told Israeli lawmakers that the IDF expects to start its three-phase war with airstrikes and ground maneuvers, before defeating Hamas pockets of resistance

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

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WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 22:05

SomeCatFromJapan · 20/10/2023 22:04

@Pigeotto Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 but the UN still considered it as occupied land and Israel therefore retained responsibility for the basic needs of the population there.

Responsibility and control.

DownNative · 20/10/2023 22:06

Pigeotto · 20/10/2023 21:59

Can I ask a really ignorant question? How can you give Gaza back to Palestine but still be responsible for providing food and water for them? Even before this conflict, What am I missing. Surely Palestine should have taken over control of the amenities. Or were they not allowed?

Because Israel is regarded as the occupying power under International law. Now that Hamas attacked on 7th October 2023, Israel intends to go right ahead in relinquishing all responsibility.

It's ONLY Gaza Israel intends to give up all responsibility for.

What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?
ketchup07070 · 20/10/2023 22:07

@Pigeotto There's another thread on water occupation, which explains about issues with water. One thing is that they have to get a permit from Israel to dig wells, which is often denied.

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 22:08

ketchup07070 · 20/10/2023 21:50

@Trulywonderful OK, although it isn't an international border, it's a fence. When the wall was put up in the west bank, it was built several miles over the green line, appropriating Palestinian territory. So, while it may be called an enlarged buffer zone, it has the effect of appropriating land.

No idea about the exact details of that to know if you are right. However will take your word for it. To me a buffer zone is a buffer zone nobody is living on it. Therefore it doesn't matter which land it is on. Dead space, no settlements etc. On some threads please have been constantly suggesting Israel want to build settlements in Gaza or even a Dubai like resort. Therefore to me as I said they should both lose equal land. Frankly they both would greatly gain from one.

To be honest I have hope that one day the west bank will be a more peaceful place. I think no more settlements and an independent Arab or the UN to police better integration between everyone currently living there. However the PO is still incharge until a time when a fair election can happen. The PO have been more interested in trying to keep things stable recently than before. This Gaza situation will have blown that thought up for a bit. Largely Palestinians in the west bank just seems to watch get on with there day to day lifes in peace. Obviously there is a fraction that support Hamas too and their goal too. However if illegalsettlements stop being built and intergation was policed I believe a sort of peace can happen there. Maybe with that peace the stolen green line land can eventually get negotiated back in time, who knows.

SomeCatFromJapan · 20/10/2023 22:10

The official reason for this was security and self defence.

Tbf 7 October did illustrate that need rather well.

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 22:11

ketchup07070 · 20/10/2023 22:07

@Pigeotto There's another thread on water occupation, which explains about issues with water. One thing is that they have to get a permit from Israel to dig wells, which is often denied.

I believe they fear a Hamas style tunnel system being made. This is a very realistic fear because of a sizeable number of Hamas supporters there. However it is wrong to not permit well being dug.

ketchup07070 · 20/10/2023 22:12

@Trulywonderful Let's hope things can work out as you say. Rather difficult to imagine the West Bank working out at the moment, but who knows.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 22:13

DownNative · 20/10/2023 22:06

Because Israel is regarded as the occupying power under International law. Now that Hamas attacked on 7th October 2023, Israel intends to go right ahead in relinquishing all responsibility.

It's ONLY Gaza Israel intends to give up all responsibility for.

Good point. They want to keep the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
Both are undergoing gradual dispossession from Palestinian inhabitants via illegal settling.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/11/1104792

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/03/human-rights-council-hears-current-israeli-plan-double-settler-population-occupied

Israel settlement expansion ‘tramples’ on human rights law, experts contend

Israel’s plan to build thousands of new homes for Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem has drawn strong condemnation from two independent experts appointed by the UN Human Rights Council. 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/11/1104792

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 22:15

SomeCatFromJapan · 20/10/2023 22:10

The official reason for this was security and self defence.

Tbf 7 October did illustrate that need rather well.

SomeCatFromJapan · 20/10/2023 22:18

Or perhaps Oct 7 was a consequence of 17yrs of apartheid? As in if they hadn’t have done all that, driving millions into desperation, would Oct 7 have happened?

I think that the blockade of Gaza was both probably necessary for Israeli security, AND utterly shit for the average Gazan. Both things can be true.

I don't think there is any excuse at all for what occured on 7 October. If they'd attacked military installations, by all means. But nothing on earth justifies the mass torture and killings of civilians, and I'm disappointed to read someone making excuses for what occured.

SomeCatFromJapan · 20/10/2023 22:19

Ah, I see you've edited your comment quickly where you justify the terrorist atrocity. Do you not stand by that statement then?

TopicalNameChange · 20/10/2023 22:22

@WhiteHorseSpirit ffs

DownNative · 20/10/2023 22:23

SomeCatFromJapan · 20/10/2023 22:10

The official reason for this was security and self defence.

Tbf 7 October did illustrate that need rather well.

It did, indeed. Especially when a senior Hamas leader openly said this.....

"Hamas' deadly attack on southern Israel six days ago - unprecedented for the group in its planning and scale - was a devastating demonstration of the military expertise it has gained since seizing control of Gaza in 2007....

Necessity is the mother of invention," said Ali Baraka, a senior Hamas official, adding that the group had long drawn on money and training from Iran and Iranian regional proxies like Lebanon's Hezbollah, while bolstering its own forces in Gaza.

Difficulties in importing weapons meant that over the past nine years "we developed our capabilities and are able to manufacture locally", said Baraka, who is based in Lebanon....

In the 2008 Gaza war, Hamas rockets had a maximum range of 40 km (25 miles), but that had risen to 230 km by the 2021 conflict, he added.

After the most recent Gaza war in 2021, Hamas and an affiliated group called Palestinian Islamic Jihad managed to retain 40% of their missile inventories, a key target of the Israelis, according to the U.S. based non-profit Jewish Institute for National Security of America, keeping roughly 11,750 missiles compared with 23,000 before the conflict."

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/bombardments-hit-area-gaza-sinai-border-crossing-gaza-officials-2023-10-10/

You might find this interesting:

"Since Hamas took power in 2007, the Israeli military periodically would go into Gaza, fight with Hamas, and destroy some of its infrastructure. Hamas would rebuild for a few years, and then the cycle would repeat itself. Israelis called this “mowing the grass,” an unpleasant but necessary repetitive task. This cycle is no longer going to be acceptable to the Israeli public or political leadership. Now, the question is what kind of government will emerge in Gaza after the war. It might entail greater control for the Palestinian National Authority based in Ramallah, some sort of new local governance, governance under the tutelage of the Israeli military, or perhaps a coalition of Arab states. There are a lot of possibilities, but it is hard to imagine that Hamas can remain in power."

And:

"Israel and the Arab states are strategically aligned on Gaza. Virtually all Arab governments are hostile to Hamas, which is essentially the Palestinian version of the Muslim Brotherhood. Many of these states have outlawed the Muslim Brotherhood and jailed its members. They also fear the tentacles of Iran, which has helped bankroll Hamas and trained some of its fighters. Arab governments may have a role in helping shape a political outcome in Gaza that simultaneously helps advance Palestinian national aspirations while also dealing a blow to Islamist movements and Iranian proxies."

Link: https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamas-and-israel-current-situation-and-looking-ahead

Western leaders such as Biden and Sunak see Saudi Arabia as an important player in the Middle East.

Biden's administration had been helping shape a political normalisation of relations deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Sunak has just met with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman.

Remember, Salman has been frustrated by Palestinian leaders in peace deal talks.

These leaders all know and understand that there cannot be a political settlement until the security problem is properly dealt with. The two go hand in hand and not separately.

What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?
What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?
TopicalNameChange · 20/10/2023 22:23

@WhiteHorseSpirit so then the Israelis are justified for whatever revenge they decide? Is that your belief system?

mushti · 20/10/2023 22:26

MissyB1 · 20/10/2023 21:55

What Hamas supporters are you talking about?? Who specifically on this thread?? Or are you another idiot that insists anyone sympathetic to Palestinian civilians is a Hamas supporter?

Assume I am an idiot.

Could take a shot at answering the question? On behalf of supporters of Hamas, and supporters of the Palestinian struggle. 75 years on, is it going the way you hoped?

Parkingt111 · 20/10/2023 22:28

The IDF and Israel really need to treat the Palestinians in the west bank better. Soke awful atrocities taking place there daily
I mean just look at this in the Israeli paper

DownNative · 20/10/2023 22:39

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 22:13

Good point. They want to keep the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
Both are undergoing gradual dispossession from Palestinian inhabitants via illegal settling.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/11/1104792

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/03/human-rights-council-hears-current-israeli-plan-double-settler-population-occupied

On the contrary, I believe Israel feels a reasonable deal down the line can be done with the Palestinian Authority.

Without Hamas interfering.

Security cooperation with Israel has been a central pillar of the Oslo process since 1993. The Palestinian Authority view it as very important to their party which is one suggestion they cancelled the 2021 election in the West Bank after polls indicated Hamas would win. For example:

www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-vows-to-uphold-sacred-security-coordination-with-israel/

That means more chance of doing a deal with Palestinian Authority than is ever going to be possible with Hamas backed by Iran.

It's in Israel and the United States' interest to ensure the Palestinian Authority does not collapse. Its also in Palestinian Authority's interests.

Hence Sunak meeting Abbas.

With Hamas off the scene, Abbas won't need to attempt to reconcile with Hamas and can get on with the politics "art of the possible".

Again, very important to take Hamas out as a player.

DownNative · 20/10/2023 22:42

SomeCatFromJapan · 20/10/2023 22:19

Ah, I see you've edited your comment quickly where you justify the terrorist atrocity. Do you not stand by that statement then?

Edited

Should've taken a screenshot although I see you quoted it in bold anyway.

EDIT: I've taken one. 👍

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 23:00

DownNative · 20/10/2023 22:42

Should've taken a screenshot although I see you quoted it in bold anyway.

EDIT: I've taken one. 👍

Edited

Oh is that the poster that said they support Has a little while ago or something else?

TopicalNameChange · 20/10/2023 23:01

She's a dickhead who won't be back to the thread. Helpful to know who to ignore though

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 23:02

SomeCatFromJapan · 20/10/2023 21:45

The civilians did not attack anyone. 50% of the population are children. That poster said Israel shouldn't help them because they are Hamas. That means at least 50% aren't Hamas.

Again, the ordinary civilians and children in Russian didn't invade Ukraine either. But sanctions were nevertheless put in place.
Ordinary children in Germany didn't invade Poland, we still bombed them in their homes, and they ours.

You specifically said "they are Hamas" in relation to all of the Palestinians. I'm pointing out that as 50% of them are children, they cannot be described as Hamas.

ketchup07070 · 20/10/2023 23:03

@Parkingt111 I'm sorry, I can't bear to read that, but yes - things look bad in the West Bank. I'm aware of a huge increase in violence.

Trulywonderful · 20/10/2023 23:04

TopicalNameChange · 20/10/2023 23:01

She's a dickhead who won't be back to the thread. Helpful to know who to ignore though

Surely will just name change

Astonymission · 20/10/2023 23:06

flufferknutter · 20/10/2023 16:04

😢 I was worried that this is what it meant. Wtaf is happening? Why can't the UN intervene? I feel sick

Same I literally feel ill and haven’t even been reading the news as much.

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