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Conflict in the Middle East

To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

1000 replies

MistyMooPup · 10/10/2023 12:14

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

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Spambod · 10/10/2023 17:34

saffronsoup · 10/10/2023 17:07

Paestine is 100% under Israel occupation. Your lack of knowledge of this basic fact really means you have zero understanding of the situation.

Did you not hear Israel say they would cut off food and power and fuel to Palestine. They can do this because they control Palestine and Palestinians. They control who enters and exits Palestine. Do you think the Palestinians have freedom of movement?

They can't say they will cut off food and fuel and power to America or UK or Russia - because they don't occupy and control those places.

They hold all Palestinians hostage and have for a long time, killing their hostages in pretty significant numbers over the years, including women and children and babies.

The British gave the region of Palestine to Jewish settlers. Israel is a legally recognised country. Palestine is not and never has been. This is a basic fact. Gaza has not been under occupation since 2005.
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Israel has no and never has had any obligation to supply water or power or anything else to a hostile region next door. Israel must restrict movement due to the animosity from Hamas and the danger from Hamas, they have the right to control their border and ensure security for their people, as we have seen.
Hamas is in charge why don't they use considerable aid money to set up power and water supplies and schools and hospitals instead of siphoning that money off into their private accounts. Hamas hallmark is to use civilians as human shields. Why do you think they are a designated terrorist organisation. Palestinians need to be liberated from Hamas.

saffronsoup · 10/10/2023 17:38

Spambod · 10/10/2023 17:34

The British gave the region of Palestine to Jewish settlers. Israel is a legally recognised country. Palestine is not and never has been. This is a basic fact. Gaza has not been under occupation since 2005.
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Israel has no and never has had any obligation to supply water or power or anything else to a hostile region next door. Israel must restrict movement due to the animosity from Hamas and the danger from Hamas, they have the right to control their border and ensure security for their people, as we have seen.
Hamas is in charge why don't they use considerable aid money to set up power and water supplies and schools and hospitals instead of siphoning that money off into their private accounts. Hamas hallmark is to use civilians as human shields. Why do you think they are a designated terrorist organisation. Palestinians need to be liberated from Hamas.

They also need to be liberated from Israel.

Right now Hamas is the only organization in Palestine that has any power so they support it. Not because they agree with Hamas but because when held hostage you align with whomever can possibly support your attempts to gain freedom.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 10/10/2023 17:46

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 16:47

I think it’s absolutely disgusting what Hamas are doing - barbaric.

But…I think I would say that the Israeli treatment of Palestine is worse that just less than perfect. Anyone I have spoken to that has visited Gaza has described horrific treatment of Palestinians by Israel. Raining bombs on a small area where children live, depriving them of human rights and movement is also terrible.

It seems like only really desperate people elect organisations like Hamas because they see that as their only chance of freedom.

And for whoever asked why people don’t call on Egypt to help Gaza as their neighbours, I think that’s because Egypt aren’t the country that are fencing them in and bombing them?

Some Israeli policies are blatant human rights violations.

I still can´t "both sides" this and stand by the rest of my comment.

BlippiIsAnnoying · 10/10/2023 17:57

Hamas was propped up by Netenyahu to thwart a Palestinian state. His own words reported by Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper.

catgirl1976 · 10/10/2023 18:10

Hammas have just beheaded 40 babies. You can disagree with Israel as a state but to say they are playing the “poor Israel” card beggars belief

Willyoujustbequiet · 10/10/2023 18:12

dimsumfatsum · 10/10/2023 13:01

By killing the Palestinians and forcing them out to neighbouring Muslim countries, Israel will have achieved its purpose- to have the entire country to itself. The Israeli ambassador was baying for blood on last nights Channel 4 news. The whole thing stinks to high even and they're now going to use to 'poor Israel' rhetoric to get their way. Hmmm...

Your username is appropriate.

Willyoujustbequiet · 10/10/2023 18:18

catgirl1976 · 10/10/2023 18:10

Hammas have just beheaded 40 babies. You can disagree with Israel as a state but to say they are playing the “poor Israel” card beggars belief

I've just been seeing this on the news.

It's sickening. Hamas aren't human. They would murder their own children if it meant they got to kill Jews.

It's not possible to reason or negotiate with evil like this.

Those images of those poor Jewish children taken hostage and waiting to be executed will haunt me forever.

DdraigGoch · 10/10/2023 18:34

Lonesomefetter · 10/10/2023 15:10

Why do people equate hamas with the Palestinian people? Racism that's why.

Actually the people I've seen equating Hamas with the Palestinian people are the ones who are either supporting, or at least excusing the terrorist attack.

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 18:41

The whole thing is hideous and shows what people are capable of when they stop seeing other groups of people as human.

Last night DH and I were bickering over whether we can afford to go away this Christmas. But when I cuddled my 4 year old this morning in our warm clean bed I almost cried for feeling so lucky that he was laughing and safe.

Evermean · 10/10/2023 18:42

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 15:50

And why is it antisemitism to criticise the Israeli government? If i disagree with the Moroccan government does that make me anti Muslim?

Anti-semetic conspiracy theories have been around for thousands of years. I think people can recognise comments about "false flags" as what they are.

nowordsforthis · 10/10/2023 18:46

NC as I don't usually reveal my location on here though I do post from time to time. I'm writing this having just put my kid to bed in northern Israel to the sound of F16s literally roaring over my home, then finished a mail to a colleague whose son was shot at the party in the south--all while just a few minutes walk away the funeral is taking place for the first young soldier from our small town to die in this sad, terrible, frightening war. So, I have my POV, but:

What do you think Israel is looking for an excuse for?! A thousand of our people have lost their lives, the vast majority of them civilians butchered in cold blood. Whole communities which were established since the earliest days of the state have essentially been wiped off the map. Literally everyone in this country knows someone who has lost someone or had a family member directly caught up in this violence. Literally anybody you ask would do ANYTHING to wind the clock back to Friday and not have this happen. And it's not just Jewish Israelis - Hamas managed to kill a number of Bedouin kids in Israel's south and a West Bank Palestinian man this afternoon, all by rocket fire aimed deliberately at civilians.

I'm a leftist who regularly demonstrates against the current government and against the occupation, but I'm genuinely at a loss about how one deals either in the short or long term with this level of violence. There are still today Hamas militants entering Israel and attempting to continue the violence. I don't have any answers - but an "excuse"? No way.

EasternStandard · 10/10/2023 18:49

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 18:41

The whole thing is hideous and shows what people are capable of when they stop seeing other groups of people as human.

Last night DH and I were bickering over whether we can afford to go away this Christmas. But when I cuddled my 4 year old this morning in our warm clean bed I almost cried for feeling so lucky that he was laughing and safe.

This is how I feel

I’m not surprised posters feel in shock

The world feels extreme atm and I’ll find gratitude in safety

It’s just too awful

BlueYonder57 · 10/10/2023 18:57

And for whoever asked why people don’t call on Egypt to help Gaza as their neighbours, I think that’s because Egypt aren’t the country that are fencing them in and bombing them?

Egypt may not be bombing them, but you really need to have a good look at a map. Egypt closed the border crossings. Why? Because they don't want the refugees, but even more, they don't want Hamas. Anyone recall what the last bunch of extremists in Egypt did to their tourist economy? Or the ones before that? Egypt may not be perfect, but they definitely don't want to take sides with Hamas. That will destroy their economy, alienate powers they require friendly relationships with, and well... the last time they fell out with Israel they got trounced.

Of course if the British want to absorb the "small boats" of Palestinian refugees???

Ah, you see that's where all the rhetoric takes over, isn't it? From our relatively comfortable sofas it's easy to tell everyone else how they should act. But let's test that theory...

Just a few short weeks ago posters here were queuing up to personally execute a woman convicted of killing babies that were not their relatives, and with whom they had no relationship. Based purely on press reports of the trial.

So what would you all do if those were your beheaded children or grandchildren? Shrug and say that you are just as responsible for their deaths because your country might have done some questionable things in a war against terrorists? And just remember, wherever you are sitting right now, your country has done some questionable things in the war against terrorism. There's an enquiry going on in London right now about the questionable things the UK troops did in Afghanistan. We all have blood on our hands.

But I'll tell you one thing. If those were your children or grandchildren, you wouldn't be listening to or putting reasonable arguments about the past or who was wrong in what way. You would take up the nearest weapon, whether a pitchfork or a semi-automatic, and you would kill every person you thought responsible, whether they were or not. And the problem is that both sides feel like that. Often with reason. But terrorists don't care and they account to nobody. No matter how far Israel goes, it can and will be held to account. Hamas won't. They can't be convicted of war crimes - they cannot declare war. They are terrorists.

Be honest. What would you do?

Hamas do not represent Palestinians. They hold them in fear and thrall. What Hamas feared was the intervention of other Arabic states brokering a form of peace that allowed Israeli's and Palestinians to even begin a dialogue. And that was the reason for the attack, in my view.

Bettyboopsbonnet · 10/10/2023 18:58

@saffronsoup "They also need to be liberated from Israel."

Maybe...

So why aren't the citizens of Gaza all taking off in dingys and heading to Turkey (nearest Islamic country)?

Ilefttownonsaturday · 10/10/2023 19:01

Bettyboopsbonnet · 10/10/2023 18:58

@saffronsoup "They also need to be liberated from Israel."

Maybe...

So why aren't the citizens of Gaza all taking off in dingys and heading to Turkey (nearest Islamic country)?

Because it's in lockdown, there is nowhere for the Palestinians to go.

BlueYonder57 · 10/10/2023 19:02

Bettyboopsbonnet · 10/10/2023 18:58

@saffronsoup "They also need to be liberated from Israel."

Maybe...

So why aren't the citizens of Gaza all taking off in dingys and heading to Turkey (nearest Islamic country)?

Have you met Erdoğan?

affeny · 10/10/2023 19:03

Good post @BlueYonder57 Well said.

Bettyboopsbonnet · 10/10/2023 19:05

BlueYonder57 · 10/10/2023 19:02

Have you met Erdoğan?

No, and your point is ??

BlackboardMonitorVimes · 10/10/2023 19:19

BlueYonder57 · 10/10/2023 18:57

And for whoever asked why people don’t call on Egypt to help Gaza as their neighbours, I think that’s because Egypt aren’t the country that are fencing them in and bombing them?

Egypt may not be bombing them, but you really need to have a good look at a map. Egypt closed the border crossings. Why? Because they don't want the refugees, but even more, they don't want Hamas. Anyone recall what the last bunch of extremists in Egypt did to their tourist economy? Or the ones before that? Egypt may not be perfect, but they definitely don't want to take sides with Hamas. That will destroy their economy, alienate powers they require friendly relationships with, and well... the last time they fell out with Israel they got trounced.

Of course if the British want to absorb the "small boats" of Palestinian refugees???

Ah, you see that's where all the rhetoric takes over, isn't it? From our relatively comfortable sofas it's easy to tell everyone else how they should act. But let's test that theory...

Just a few short weeks ago posters here were queuing up to personally execute a woman convicted of killing babies that were not their relatives, and with whom they had no relationship. Based purely on press reports of the trial.

So what would you all do if those were your beheaded children or grandchildren? Shrug and say that you are just as responsible for their deaths because your country might have done some questionable things in a war against terrorists? And just remember, wherever you are sitting right now, your country has done some questionable things in the war against terrorism. There's an enquiry going on in London right now about the questionable things the UK troops did in Afghanistan. We all have blood on our hands.

But I'll tell you one thing. If those were your children or grandchildren, you wouldn't be listening to or putting reasonable arguments about the past or who was wrong in what way. You would take up the nearest weapon, whether a pitchfork or a semi-automatic, and you would kill every person you thought responsible, whether they were or not. And the problem is that both sides feel like that. Often with reason. But terrorists don't care and they account to nobody. No matter how far Israel goes, it can and will be held to account. Hamas won't. They can't be convicted of war crimes - they cannot declare war. They are terrorists.

Be honest. What would you do?

Hamas do not represent Palestinians. They hold them in fear and thrall. What Hamas feared was the intervention of other Arabic states brokering a form of peace that allowed Israeli's and Palestinians to even begin a dialogue. And that was the reason for the attack, in my view.

Edited

@BlueYonder57 thank you for your reasoned responses to this thread.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 10/10/2023 19:20

Because Egypt doesn´t want Hamas either?

And many Arab countries have a pretty horrible track record when it comes to Palestinian refugees?

Aishah231 · 10/10/2023 19:27

I'm confused as to how they got the weapons considering Gaza's borders are controlled by the Israeli government. It might be a false flag, it might not but it wouldn't surprise me.

nowordsforthis · 10/10/2023 19:35

Aishah231 · 10/10/2023 19:27

I'm confused as to how they got the weapons considering Gaza's borders are controlled by the Israeli government. It might be a false flag, it might not but it wouldn't surprise me.

It's for sure not a false flag. There are plenty of videos (from both sides) confirming it was a Hamas operation. Generally speaking weapons are smuggled in via tunnels under the Egyptian border, and to some extent also by sea. There's plenty of info on this out there.

BlurredEdges · 10/10/2023 19:36

Aishah231 · 10/10/2023 19:27

I'm confused as to how they got the weapons considering Gaza's borders are controlled by the Israeli government. It might be a false flag, it might not but it wouldn't surprise me.

I'm sorry you're so easily confused but that doesn't make it OK to spread antisemitic conspiracy theories.

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