Page 4 | To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

etmoietmoietmoi · 10/10/2023 16:52

As far as I can see it is simply hideous all round. I can't find a word strong enough to say how utterly deplorable it allis.

Agreed. @justteanbiscuits

AbsoluteYawns · 10/10/2023 16:59

But as their neighbours and brothers why don't they open the gates? They are therfore also fencing them in by that logic yes?

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 17:01

The question of whether Egypt should open there borders or not is irrelevant compared to the question of whether Israel should stop bombing or not.

Spambod · 10/10/2023 17:01

dimsumfatsum · 10/10/2023 13:01

By killing the Palestinians and forcing them out to neighbouring Muslim countries, Israel will have achieved its purpose- to have the entire country to itself. The Israeli ambassador was baying for blood on last nights Channel 4 news. The whole thing stinks to high even and they're now going to use to 'poor Israel' rhetoric to get their way. Hmmm...

Rubbish. 20% of israeli citizens are arabs who live in israel. Gaza is not under israeli occupation, they left in 2005. The two state solution has been proposed by Israel 5 times. hamas reject all peace, they are open about this. Do you seriously think Israelis welcome or wanted this attack. Many palestinians live and work in Israel. Do you know of Hamas and what their aims are?

BeggyMitchell · 10/10/2023 17:03

AbsoluteYawns · 10/10/2023 16:37

DailyMail reporting Hamas have beheaded babies.
Are the sympathisers still here??

Yy. Where the fuck are the sympathisers with 'yes that's awful BUT...' ?

Surely just a matter of time.

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 17:03

Spambod · 10/10/2023 17:01

Rubbish. 20% of israeli citizens are arabs who live in israel. Gaza is not under israeli occupation, they left in 2005. The two state solution has been proposed by Israel 5 times. hamas reject all peace, they are open about this. Do you seriously think Israelis welcome or wanted this attack. Many palestinians live and work in Israel. Do you know of Hamas and what their aims are?

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According to The Red Cross and the UN, Gaza is officially still under military occupation by Israel.

AbsoluteYawns · 10/10/2023 17:04

justteanbiscuits · 10/10/2023 16:50

The very fact British Jews are now on high alert and Jewish business have had Windows smashed in already with graffiti about Paelstine on a bridge in a known Jewish populated area in London

My sons (secondary) school have emailed all parents today to ask us to speak to our children as a number of Palestinian children in the school have been targeted at school and been subject to abuse. (There aren't many Jewish kids at the school because we live near a big Jewish school).

As far as I can see it is simply hideous all round. I can't find a word strong enough to say how utterly deplorable it all is.

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This is exactly it
You are talking about Palestinian kids yes? Not British Muslims.

I'm talking about British Jews.

Not Israelis.

British Jews.

Why should the British Jews at your school and in the UK (hell around the world even!) feel worried?

Rhetorical question...we all know the answer and it's not about geopolitics.

AbsoluteYawns · 10/10/2023 17:07

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 17:01

The question of whether Egypt should open there borders or not is irrelevant compared to the question of whether Israel should stop bombing or not.

It very much IS relevant.
If safe passage can be arranged WHO is not allowing it?
And WHY?

BelleHathor · 10/10/2023 17:07

Dotjones · 10/10/2023 14:52

I think Hamas are adopting the Machiavellian view, that there's no avoiding war, just delaying it to the advantage of your enemy. They will only get weaker by delaying - Israel is better equipped and has much better intelligence (services). Purely from a strategic point of view there's nothing much to be gained in delaying their assault. Israel would just consolidate their position and make Hamas weaker. I think Hamas would rather go down fighting, the obliteration of their people being largely irrelevant to them because they see it as a question of when they'd be obliterated, not if they would be.

For the most part outside observers of any conflict see one side as more guilty or innocent than the other. They can't understand why the guilty/guiltier side does what they do when it is "obviously" wrong to anyone whose main concern is the preservation of life. Hamas, like Putin in Ukraine, doesn't really care about the preservation of life. And once you're comfortable with the idea of many casualties the game of war can begin in earnest.

I read a post elsewhere this morning (different site altogether) asking something along the lines of "when will humans learn to live in peace?" Based on the evidence of the past hundred thousand years it'll be a while yet.

Interesting hypothesis, there have been countless articles over the last few weeks about how Nato/Western weapons arsenals are depleted due to supplying Ukraine and the failure to up production to replenish the stock.
In January the US sent 300'000 rounds of it's ammunition from Israel to Ukraine, https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-quietly-shipping-ammo-to-ukraine-from-massive-stockpile-in-israel-report/.

US quietly shipping ammo to Ukraine from massive stockpile in Israel — report

New York Times says 300,000 artillery shells to be sent to Kyiv's forces from American supplies kept in Israel for emergency use

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-quietly-shipping-ammo-to-ukraine-from-massive-stockpile-in-israel-report

saffronsoup · 10/10/2023 17:07

Spambod · 10/10/2023 17:01

Rubbish. 20% of israeli citizens are arabs who live in israel. Gaza is not under israeli occupation, they left in 2005. The two state solution has been proposed by Israel 5 times. hamas reject all peace, they are open about this. Do you seriously think Israelis welcome or wanted this attack. Many palestinians live and work in Israel. Do you know of Hamas and what their aims are?

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Paestine is 100% under Israel occupation. Your lack of knowledge of this basic fact really means you have zero understanding of the situation.

Did you not hear Israel say they would cut off food and power and fuel to Palestine. They can do this because they control Palestine and Palestinians. They control who enters and exits Palestine. Do you think the Palestinians have freedom of movement?

They can't say they will cut off food and fuel and power to America or UK or Russia - because they don't occupy and control those places.

They hold all Palestinians hostage and have for a long time, killing their hostages in pretty significant numbers over the years, including women and children and babies.

SemperIdem · 10/10/2023 17:09

The Palestinian people have suffered for decades. The actions of Hamas cannot be condoned because of this.

I have deep sympathy for Palestinians and Israelis alike. The average person on the street in either state has no more say in the actions of their respective leaders than we do ours. I cannot imagine how truly terrifying it must be.

justteanbiscuits · 10/10/2023 17:10

AbsoluteYawns · 10/10/2023 17:04

This is exactly it
You are talking about Palestinian kids yes? Not British Muslims.

I'm talking about British Jews.

Not Israelis.

British Jews.

Why should the British Jews at your school and in the UK (hell around the world even!) feel worried?

Rhetorical question...we all know the answer and it's not about geopolitics.

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And why should the Palestinian kids feel worried for their own safety?

My point was local Palestinian's are also being targeted. I made the comment about there being very few Jewish kids at their school was just that it made it unlikely to be Jewish people abusing them in the school.

My neighbours are from Israel and actually met in the IDF. I worry for their family I know who are in Israel. I also worry for the family of my sons Palestinian friends.

Firebug007 · 10/10/2023 17:11

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 15:49

Why does everyone feel like they have to take a side and agree with one and condemn the other. Forget who has the historical rights to a land, what we have now is generations of civilians affected by two elected organisations, Hammas (the officially elected government of Gaza) and the Israeli government who both think it’s ok to commit war crimes that result in the murder of children. I don’t see how either side can be excused.

This!

saythatagaintome · 10/10/2023 17:11

MistyMooPup · 10/10/2023 12:14

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

Hamas has strong support amongst its civilians…

Bettyboopsbonnet · 10/10/2023 17:11

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 10/10/2023 15:19

This.

An unstable region may also benefit other global players.

Such as Iran. Or Russia, which will try to use this crisis.

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We know that Iran has been bankrolling Hamas for years, and Russia has been trying to get into bed with Iran at the same time.

"Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said Sunday he has ordered the Gerald R. Ford carrier strike group to sail to the Eastern Mediterranean to be ready to assist Israel after the attack by Hamas that has left more than 1,000 dead on both sides. Americans were reported to be among those killed and missing."

and from "The Beet"
'Volodymyr Zelensky said in his daily video address on Monday that the Russian authorities have an interest in fomenting conflict in the Middle East.
According to the Ukrainian president, he held a meeting with the heads of the country’s intelligence agencies and top diplomats in recent days to discuss the new escalation in the conflict between Hamas and Israel.
“According to the information available — which is very clear — Russia is interested in fueling war in the Middle East so that a new source of pain and suffering weakens global unity, adds to the division and contradictions, and in this way helps Russia destroy freedom in Europe,” said Zelensky.'

User135644 · 10/10/2023 17:13

I don't see what they were trying to achieve.

They know Israel are armed to the teeth and fully backed up by the west and the western media. One thing Palestine do have is a lot of sympathy for their plight, which causes Israel to hold off more than they'd like, now they've carte blanche. Utterly stupid.

Spambod · 10/10/2023 17:16

headstone · 10/10/2023 16:48

My thoughts, Hamas was looking at severing ties between neighbouring Arab countries and Israel. This seems to have worked with Saudi. I think the mentality is it is better to die fighting then die locked in a cage like an animal. They consider all Israelis as the enemy and legitimate targets. I think the taking of hostages was done to protect their own citizens. I do not agree with violent resistance like what Hamas did as I’m a pacifist but violent resistance is almost universal when it comes to occupation, maltreatment, murder and ethnic cleansing. I cannot see a way out for Palestinians. Non violent resistance has not worked out well for them either. It is obvious that Israel as a state does not work, it should never have been allowed. Young men join Hamas because they have no future.

Hamas stated aim is to kill jews and have no peace. That is the mentality. you think they took hostages to protect Palestinians in the Gaza strip. really!! Their hallmark is to use them as human shields. What makes you think that? they take aid money meant for schools and hospitals and keep it for themselves. There have been no elections since 2006. Gaza is not occupied by Israel, they left in 2005. Gaza is occupied by Hamas.
Why do you think they are widely designated a terrorist group?
Do you seriously think what Hamas did was 'violent resistance'. Killing festival goers, rape, beheading a baby, burning an old woman alive. Really ?

When have Palestinians adopted non violent resistance, to know that, as you say it didn't work for them?

Why doesn't Israel as a state work? It is one of the most successful and prosperous countries on earth. Their technology is a huge export. They are a major power. Who should allow Jewish people to have a country or not? Are they lesser in some way? Your tone sounds so colonial.

I find your post quite baffling and extraordinary.

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 17:16

AbsoluteYawns · 10/10/2023 17:07

It very much IS relevant.
If safe passage can be arranged WHO is not allowing it?
And WHY?

Edited

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Ok so Egypt open their borders, all the Palestinians leave and only Israel is left. Are you saying that that’s the solution?

Flatiron · 10/10/2023 17:20

Israel does not threaten to kill the Palestinian children in Israeli custody.

No, I’m sure they’re treated with the utmost care and consideration…

Just to be clear, there are no ‘goodies’ and ‘baddies’ in this hideous, intractable conflict. Not even Israel which, God knows, was born out of the most horrific war crimes the world has ever witnessed, deserves a free pass.

AbsoluteYawns · 10/10/2023 17:20

Bex5490 · 10/10/2023 17:16

Ok so Egypt open their borders, all the Palestinians leave and only Israel is left. Are you saying that that’s the solution?

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Of course not.
A real peace is the only solution.
For now the innocent civilians in Gaza need to escape to safety in Egypt.

It's like saying people should be left in Ukraine to suffer. No, open the border away from the fighting and let them pass.

beachcitygirl · 10/10/2023 17:21

Flatiron · 10/10/2023 17:20

Israel does not threaten to kill the Palestinian children in Israeli custody.

No, I’m sure they’re treated with the utmost care and consideration…

Just to be clear, there are no ‘goodies’ and ‘baddies’ in this hideous, intractable conflict. Not even Israel which, God knows, was born out of the most horrific war crimes the world has ever witnessed, deserves a free pass.

Well said

Spambod · 10/10/2023 17:21

Lonesomefetter · 10/10/2023 15:00

The only reason people are pretend weeping for isreali people is because it's on the news. You drive by virtue signallers.

what a sad attitude to have about people.

KimberleyClark · 10/10/2023 17:22

I think I recognise dehumanising language in order to wipe out a population.

So do I.

DdraigGoch · 10/10/2023 17:27

This is deliberate. Relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia had been improving. Iran relies on chaos to avoid isolation so got Hamas to stir some up.

I don't defend the response of the IDF - particularly the cutting off of life's essentials, but it was patently obvious that they would come down like a ton of bricks. Hamas didn't care, the leaders are safely bunkered up. Hamas make sure that Palestinian civilians get in the way, this is their way of gaining support from other Arab nations. Their tactics in the past have been to groom children into provoking IDF troops, again as a way of generating outrage.

Hamas don't care how many civilians get in the way, whether those civilian are Israeli or Palestinian. Most Palestinians hate Hamas as much as they hate the IDF.

Noicant · 10/10/2023 17:31

Tbh on the face of it, it seems senseless, they attacked civilians, the crimes against children are horrific but theres no real gain. Obviously it’s basically the 50th anniversary of the yom kippur war. I was starting to think maybe they were expecting some help from Hezbollah.

They definitely knew how Israel would react to this, they knew that Gaza would be likely to face a ground invasion, I wonder if they were promised support or they were pressed into it by Iranians. I can’t imagine that they thought they would get anything substantial out of it apart from disrupting the treatise between Saudi and Israel. But would you sacrifice thousands of your own peoples lives to stop that from happening?