To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

In 1938 they refused to give the native Jews even 500 square miles for their state. They refused in principle to let their former dhimmi neighbours have any state of their own on Islamic lands. And as you've been told, some also engaged in ethnic cleansing. This didn't start 75 years ago.

'The Hebron massacre was the killing of sixty-seven or sixty-nine Jews on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by rumors that Jews were planning to seize control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.[1] The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed...brought the centuries-old Jewish presence in Hebron to an end.... It led to the re-organization and development of the Jewish paramilitary organization, the Haganah, which later became the nucleus of the Israel Defense Forces.[6]'

1929 Hebron massacre - Wikipedia

Indeed the stupidy of people here.

Of course Israel didn't want its young people at a festival slaughtered, women raped and babies beheaded and burnt.

Some people spin things so much to blame Israel

You have to begin with the United Nations partition plan.

The following excerpts have been taken from the United Nations website:

www.un.org/unispal/history/

"Palestine was among former Ottoman territories placed under UK administration by the League of Nations in 1922. "

You can see in this link which countries were members of the League Of Nations in 1922 when Palestine was placed under UK administration.

www.britannica.com/topic/League-of-Nations/Members-of-the-League-of-Nations

"UK considered various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, the UK turned the Palestine problem over to the UN."

Under British administration, Palestine was NOT partitioned, but you will often hear people talking as though it was!

So, we move on to the actual partition itself:

"After looking at alternatives, the UN proposed terminating the Mandate and partitioning Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947)."

As we can see, the partition of Palestine was not caused by the British Government alone.

The collective members of the United Nations made that decision.

"One of the two envisaged States proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war involving neighbouring Arab States expanded to 77 percent of the territory of mandate Palestine, including the larger part of Jerusalem. "

The Office Of The Historian in the United States says the following:

"The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948."

history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war

Partition was a United Nations collective plan.

Personally, I would argue it was the FIVE Arab States who kickstarted the Arab-Israeli aka Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Additionally, Israel has a history of land for peace deals. See attached.

Finally, if you reject every single peace deal tabled, you WILL run out of road in the end. Given the political link between Irish Republicanism and Palestinians, the Palestinians should take note of the fact Irish Republicanism had to in the end accept the principles laud down some 70 years previously.

Likewise, the Palestinian leadership must. Indeed, Arab leaders such as Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman have expressed their frustration with Palestinian leaders for rejecting every possible deal on the table.

Israel normalised relations with Egypt decades ago and was well on the way there with Saudi Arabia recently with USA assistance. Speaks volumes.

Like I said....run out of road. Politics is the art of the possible.

Not the impossible.

Imagine being so racist against Jews that you buy into and publicly repeat this absolute bollocks. How embarrassing.

Go back to the 19th/20th century and read Der Sturmer. You won't understand it but you'll like the pictures.

Bettyboopsbonnet · Today 01:16

Because America supports them and has a policy of always vetoing any UN resolution against Israel.

I see there's still just as much antisemitism on this thread as before. Despite the realities of the history of the Settlement and subsequent political history being carefully and explicitly explained numerous times, there's still "the Jews control the banks". Tedious, racist claptrap.

Der Sturmer = vile, antisemitic/racist publication.

These people are just too enraged to think and discuss rationally unfortunately. In their own echo chamber. . You could explain on here multiple times but they just won't get it. The anger from their posts is so palpable, you can feel them frothing at the other side of their screens.

Another country that would do well to improve the conditions of its iwn people first.

Thank you for perhaps having made the most reasonable comment in a thread full of uneducated comments.

I would add that many refuse to acknowledge the history of 1948 resolution and the 1967 land grab.

Totally this.
And why I stopped bothering even looking at these sorts of threads a few days ago.....

Sadly, I think the only long-term solution is for Palestinians to overthrow Hamas themselves. This seems pretty unlikely, though, doesn't it?!

Like any compassionate and half-intelligent human being, I always try to see the “story behind” and the “what about” and understand that nothing arises from a vacuum.

However.

Having seen footage and survivor accounts from the Nova festival and the kibbutz attacks, one thing is very clear. The men perpetrating these atrocities are sadistic psychopaths who enjoy inflicting barbaric cruelty on vulnerable targets. Everyone comments on how they laughed as they butchered and raped and burned and tortured, like it was a jamboree. These are not people who will ever be interested in negotiating peace and harmony. They are having far too much fun!

It's terrifying that such people wield power, but eradicating them is not as easy as herding them all into a room and detonating an explosion. I wish it was. I wish I could kill them all with my bare hands. I wish I could rescue the hostages. I wish I could put the clock back.

It seems to me that the Palestinians living under the malignant authority of Hamas are in a similar position to an abused wife. It can be a long struggle to realise how much they’re being fucked over, and the odds are stacked against them doing anything about it.

To those questioning the reality of what's been happening, oh just get a grip and have a look on YouTube or Reddit. There's plenty of evidence there for the stuff you say Israel is making up. I wish it was all lies, I really do.

But many Palestinians in the West Bank - who do not live under the authority of Hamas - unfortunately seem to support hamas as well.

hamas could even win majority support in the West Bank…

so whilst I do agree that Palestinians overthrowing Hamas would be great first step? I really don’t think it will happen. Or that it would be in the very distant future.

@PumpkinsAndCoconuts Yes... I'm trying to suspend judgement on that and give them the benefit of the doubt ("Surely no one would actively support this kind of inhumane regimen if they understood it?"), but this is probably extremely naive.

And no, it's clearly never going to happen, sadly.

If Hamas run away from the Israeli Defence Force in a ground incursion, they're at risk of losing Local Gazan population support.

I haven’t watched any footage but it sounds utterly barbaric and horrific. I’d wipe them out too.

I did hear a Times Radio interview with Hamas and he was so ideologically driven he would not answer any questions on those atrocities

It must be terrifying to be next door to that

It must be terrifying to be next door to that

Yes. Actually, living in the same world as that is pretty terrifying.

Great post.

This guy, an experienced peace negotiator, has some interesting things to say.

He ends by expressing the hope that this trauma could represent a turning point, if both sides are so sickened that they've finally had enough.

Wouldn't that be lovely... not holding my breath, though.

Thanks for that! Good interview and agree with him that Hamas know the end is coming.

There's always members of a terrorist group who want to fight to the death even when there's alternatives to it. Waste of a life as their terrorist ideology is more sacred to them.

But, yeah, I can't see Israelis and Gazans ever reconciling from here on. It was always unlikely, but Hamas smashed it to smithereens on 7th October 2023. Israel no longer believes and wants to keep them at arm's length.

Am I hopelessly naive to think that perhaps there could be a rapproachment of some sort down the line if Gaza is governed by moderates after this?

Yes, because all indicators are that Israel is absolutely done taking risks to trust Gazans. No way could they trust a "moderate" (these concepts are understood differently in post-conflict societies) as they'll be thinking back to when Hamas appeared to moderate instead of militate against mutual benefit cooperation.

Israel will look to West Bank for a security solution, imo. USA and Saudi want that too, hence this week's leaders visits.

This is what keeps me awake at night. Who will govern gaza? The population still support Hamas and armed struggle against Israel.
The pa? They'll be seen even more as the puppets of israel.
Israel? Please please no.
What will happen after hamas????

In 1938 they refused to give the native Jews even 500 square miles for their state.

And? Do you honestly believe that that gives Israel the right to steal 95% of Palestine?

That conversation was so long ago I can't even remember what you said that I was responding to and you haven't quoted it.

Anyway my point no doubt, as always, was to understand what motivated that refusal as part of understanding the behaviour of both sides from the beginning and therefore what might resolve the problem now. You don't seem hugely interested in understanding the roots of the conflict though. Why do you think the Arabs refused them 500 square miles in 1938?