To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

That pp Britby comment was disgusting. Glad it was removed so swiftly.

Scary thing is, that person is a regular poster.

@Dibblydoodahdah because your response is not measured & considered. It's biased.

Because you still haven't unequivocally condemned. I have unequivocally condemned the atrocities of Hamas.

Because you have lied about me & continue to do so.

I posted links from respected broadcasters such as the bbc & the economist & con saying the reports were unconfirmed & I begged people to not add fuel to an already horrific fire.

You lied about that being a denial.
You keep tagging & quoting me & referring to me in a snide yet obvious way.

I don't find you measured or reasonable atall. I find you an apologist for Israel's ongoing war crimes. I've given you several opportunities to condemn.

So yes, it appears to me that you value a Palestinian baby less than an Israel baby and that's abhorrent on every level.

Ps I'm from the roma community so please please do come at me with how I don't know the horrors of attempted genocide.

whatever suits you

There is not one element of bias in my responses.

You were the one suggesting that the mutiliation of babies did not happen and I, quite rightly, called you out on that as did others. No, you weren’t as clear as the most recent evil poster, but your responses suggested denial which as I have said and will keep saying, is fucking insensitive in the context of the victims of the attack and what people of their religion have had to suffer regarding the denial of attrocities historically.

You’re clearly a fan of very emotive language. I’m not. I have no idea whether Israel have committed war crimes because I don’t know enough about the situation so I’m not going to start making long posts saying it’s this, that and the other when I don’t have the facts. That does not make me an apologist for anything and you have absolutely no right to say that.

When have I said you don’t know the horrors of attempted genocide? Just more ludicrous lies.

Some people are making the worst massacre of Jews in recent history all about themselves, how strange. The level of brutality Hamas has demonstrated this weekend has shocked hardened people. Perhaps this is the time to extend love and good wishes to our Israeli friends and fellow humans. I think it is. And perhaps it also is the time to extend love and good wishes to Palestinians who are not Hamas and do not support Hamas. I wish them well. Egypt has said they don't want Gazans and they should stay put. They will provide essentials and medical aid. If Hamas could be dismantled there could be a chance for peace. Don't get carried away with hate against Israelis, Jews Palestinians. We are all human beings. This mess needs to be sorted. The first step is to dismantle Hamas, I hope they can do this with minimum civilian casualties on all sides.

themothergoose

How? Do you have two passports or is my understanding that if you enter one of the countries, you won’t be allowed into the other wrong?

When you enter Israel you can choose not to have your passport stamped as you wouldn't be allowed into muslim countries - sadly.
There were tours which take people into Palestine - particularly if you are on a Christian pilgrimage. Most people go to Palestine to see Bethlehem and the churches at the site where Jesus was born. You can go from Israel, cross the boarder with a tour guide into Palestine. There were soldiers there and seemed safe at the time. Lots of tourists.

Thank you! that’s very interesting.

Ripping down posters of children and babies kidnapped by terrorists:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625075/Shocking-moment-woman-says-Palestine-tears-posters-children-kidnapped-Hamas-terrorists-woman-filmed-encounter-says-Jewish-people-Britain-scared-forced-hide-religion-public.html

I’m glad this has been highlighted and hope the police act accordingly.

This..

@BlurredEdges such hyperbole.

Unless (and I pray god not) that all those things actually happened to you & your daughter & sister & mother then please just don't- don't.

Stop 🛑 making it all about you

whilst Palestinian babies, women & kids and sisters are dying in real time through Israel's war crimes is hard to stomach. Vomit inducing actually.

The level of cognitive dissonance on here is hard to stomach

To @Dibblydoodahdah it's not that hard it's 4 lines long. Google The Geneva Convention Article 33 - individual responsibility & collective penalty to civilians = war crime.

This is a very very tough week to be a Palestinian or Israeli innocent citizen.

The UN states Hamas AND the Palestinian Authority use children as soldiers.

"Both the PA and Hamas routinely indoctrinate Palestinian children to aspire to martyrdom through armed confrontations with Israel. According to Palestinian Media Watch (PMW), “the PA operates a systematic and institutionalized policy and program to recruit child soldiers/terrorists.”

In its reports to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) on this issue, PMW accused the PA of indoctrinating Palestinian children to admire and emulate terrorists and noted that “The PA openly admits, that the child terrorists are not acting in a vacuum, but rather they consider them to be the PA’s soldiers who the PA has sent to carry out a mission.”

The United Nations below:

"PA television (TV) broadcast quizzes children on songs with “value and meanings” which PA considers expression of Palestinian “national identity.” One of the songs depicts Israel as the “enemy” and encourages armed attacks: “I'm coming with my rifle… I'm coming towards you, my enemy… with cleavers and knives.” (January 2021).

• Official PA TV children’s program commemorated cartoonist Naji al-Ala, by sharing several cartoons encouraging violence among children, including one where Fatima (Palestinian woman cartoon character) presents an AK47 to Handala (the Palestinian refugee cartoon character) and one of her handing rocks to children. (August 2020).

• Fatah Facebook page promotes child soldiers by sharing video of Jordanian boy in military uniform holding slingshot and rifle. He wants to “shoot Jews” who killed terrorist Omar Abu Laila (killed Israeli soldier, stole his weapon and shot to death Israeli father of 12). (February 2020).

• Hamas TV children’s program interviews young children dressed in military fatigues. One child says he wants to be an engineer when he grows up “so that I can blow up the Jews.” The child host responds “Keep waging Jihad…when you grow up you will wage resistance against the Jews…” (September 4, 2015).

More from the United Nations:

"In addition, PA and Hamas educational programs routinely portray terrorists as role models and incite children to violence. For example, every year Hamas runs summer camps in which it trains children in military tactics and weapons use.

Likewise, summer camps run by Fatah and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) teach children to venerate famous Palestinian martyrs like Abu Jihad, who was responsible for terror attacks in which 125 Israelis were killed.

Therefore, it is no surprise that Palestinian children perpetrate violent attacks against Israelis and participate in violent confrontations with the goal of harming Israeli soldiers and civilians."

There is absolutely NO doubt that Palestinian children ARE taught to hate Israelis. Even worse, they're TRAINED to murder Israelis!

Not quite sure the point you're making here @DownNative ? I don't doubt this is true of some.

What's your suggestion ? Ethnic cleansing? They're still children.

Do you think obliterating the region isn't going to radicalise a whole new generation.

So if all anyone cares about is revenge then say so and be done with it. Own it.

For the love of god.

Oh and btw since you're so down for what the UN are saying - Right now they are condemning Israel breaking international Law.

Link

www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-09/secretary-generals-remarks-the-press-the-situation-the-middle-east

@beachcitygirl my entire point is you and many others are in denial of the scale of the difficulties faced by Israel against Hamas.

The United Nations have provided in their report more evidence of Palestinian children being used to carry out violent acts.

The United Nations tell us all many Palestinian children express desires to become a Jihadist martyr.

Unfortunately, tragically and sadly these children and teenagers are not like our children due to the Gazan social fabric as asserted by NATO StratCom COE too.

"The 2019 report of the United Nations (UN) Commission of Inquiry on the March of Return border confrontations condemned Israel for using “lethal force against children who did not pose an imminent threat of death or serious injury to its soldiers.” The report then proceeded to list the names of 17 children, aged 11-17 who were killed during the confrontations.

However, at least nine of them were documented to be affiliated with terrorist groups. Many of these expressed a desire to die as martyrs and directly participated in violent incidents close to the security fence. For example:

• M. H. (16): Photos and videos show him at the front lines, sabotaging and breaching the fence. He also was a member of the tire burning unit whose job was to create a smokescreen to help rioters breach the fence and attack Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers.

• Y. A. N. (13): Member of known Hamas family whose father is senior member of Hamas’s al-Qassam Brigades. He was with a group of youth attempting to sabotage the border fence. Hamas Supreme Leader Ismail Haniyeh and Hamas Gaza leader Yahya Sinwar attended his funeral.

• I. S. (13): Son of senior Hamas terrorist who was documented throwing stones with a sling shot towards IDF soldiers. According to his mother, the day before his death, he said “I want to go to the [border] and to return as a martyr in the path of Allah.”

• W. S. K. (14): Fatah activist who was documented at the front line of the riots. A day before her death, she told her sister “Maybe this is the last time I have with you. I may return tomorrow as a martyr in the path of Allah.”

• H. J. (14): Participated in Friday border confrontations and told his mother “Allah willing, I’ll become a martyr [shahid] fighting in the path of Allah.”

• M. S. (15): Body was wrapped in Hamas flag at the funeral. According to a Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-linked non-governmental organization, he was shot at “approximately 20 meters from the barbed wire fence and 50 meters from the main fence.”

Outside of Gaza, Palestinian children also regularly engage in violent clashes with the Israeli army and perpetrate terror attacks against Israelis. Some recent examples include:

• 13-year-old Palestinian is shot and killed by Israeli soldiers in violent riots in which rioters threw stones at IDF troops and rolled boulders and burning tires into nearby road. A number of Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rock throwers, including soldiers Amit Ben Yigal and Ronen Lubarsky, 64 year-old Alexander Levlovitz and three-year-old A. B..

• 15-year-old Palestinian is killed in clashes with IDF troops during arrests in Al Furwar refugee camp near Hebron (May 2020).

• 17-year-old Palestinian stabs and injures 22-year-old Israeli (January 2020).
• Two teenage Palestinians stab and injure Israeli police officer near Old City of Jerusalem (August 2019).

• 16-year-old Palestinian hurling rocks at passing Israeli vehicles is shot dead by Israeli army (January 2019).

• 17-year-old Palestinian stabs to death 45-year-old Israeli Ari Fuld (September 2018).
UN Watch calls on the Human Rights Council as well as UN human rights officials, including High Commissioner Michelle Bachelet and Rapporteur Michael Lynk, to publicly condemn Palestinian recruitment of child soldiers."

When you're faced with the cold, hard reality that Hamas have trained children and teenagers so well they can kill you.....what do you do?

• *What is YOUR solution to the conflict?

The reality is this problem is part of Egypt's refusal to allow Palestinian civilians to enter Egypt via Rafah. Other neighbouring Arab States have had problems in the past with their territories then being used to attack Israel. That presents a security problem for them.

Unfortunately, terrorist organisations like Hamas like to ensconce themselves amongst the civilian population, recruit from the local Gazan population, teach them to hate Israelis, train even children to murder Israelis and so on.

The only option is to remove and destroy Hamas. This cannot be done without civilian and Israeli Defence Force personnel deaths alike.

After that, Israel and the West can set about de-Hamasifying Palestinian society in Gaza similar to what was done in West Germany post WW2.

Doing nothing isn't an option.

Children in Israel are radicalised at a young age otherwise they wouldn't want to take up nation service.

They call Palestinians arab and not Palestinians and see them as worse than dogs.

So many videos of young Israeli children dancing on graves, cheering Palestinian deaths.

What does this mean?

That the Israeli government should be taken out with civilian casualties accepted?

I doubt it.

I dont trust the Israeli justice system and after the last few days I definitely don't trust their news reporting.

The way you talk about Palestinian children is that its inevitable and has a tone of kill them now to save Israelis later...

Everyone in Israel boy or girl has to do national service, has to be a reservist does this mean that all citizens are trained soldiers and therefore acceptable to be killed?

This is the mentality that you are putting out there and its very dangerous.

Thank you for posting this @1jan2020
I've noticed the type that would do such a things on various MN threads in recent days. They're fanatics.

If it was Jews tearing down posters of Palestinian child deaths, of which there have been a lot, you would be saying it was antisemitic to post the pictures in the first place as it will cause upset in the community and could cause people to be angry.

It would be interesting to see if people do put up posters of the Palestinians children, I've already seen the images on twitter and news websites but not here in the western media.

65% of Palestine's population is under 24 and so most have grown up entirely with Hamas. Gaza strips air space, 3 sides of the border, including the water border have been under Israel's control. The Gaza strip people are poor, frequently sick from poor water sources and lack of food just due to the occupation. They are hostages, occupied by hostile forces. They can't and haven't been able to free themselves nor to set up their own infrastructure or to create a better life for themselves.

Israel corralling all the Palestinians who can find a way to move into one small area is also very concerning. Most won't be able to get there anyways without fuel, water, food, communication, transport or electricity and with roads and infrastructure bombed.

Most of the money for the food and fuel and electricity they had before did not come from Israel. Much of it came from Qatar (billion a year) but was funelled through Israel as part of the agreement to get humanitarian aid and basic goods to the Palestinians. Israel also wanted to control the flow of funds and goods.

Please show the evidence of Israeli kids dancing on Palestinian graves - from credible sources.

Your comments are vomit inducing actually. There are reports of Jewish people being targeted in various countries including in the UK and some Jewish schools are closed today for the safety of the pupils but you accuse a Jewish poster who has expressed concern of hyperbole and of making it about them. That shows the type of person you are.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12625075/Shocking-moment-woman-says-Palestine-tears-posters-children-kidnapped-Hamas-terrorists-woman-filmed-encounter-says-Jewish-people-Britain-scared-forced-hide-religion-public.html#v-5419729586474927145

Oh look, some mumsnetters whatabouting! "What about the children in Palestine?" As if ripping off posters of child hostages who are likely being brutalised, judging by what happened over the weekend, will help innocent Palestinian children. These women are hateful fanatics and an embarrassment to their communities. Ordinary Muslim families would never condone such spiteful and frankly unintelligent behaviour.

Yep, anyone who would rip down a poster of a child's face is a horrific person. I'd say the exact same of anyone doing that to Palestinian children. Although I think it's more socially acceptable to do this in the name of Palestine than in the name of Israel, as pp notes.

Imagine being so dogmatic in your thinking that you're willing to desecrate a child's memory because they were born in the wrong place, according to you.

It's hateful and self righteous @SideBob , one can only hope that these young women will change their bigoted outlook should they be lucky enough to have their own precious children one day.

I really do wonder about how much Hamas care about the lives of ordinary people in Gaza? I don't know enough about the situation there to comment specifically on that.

I grew up in Northern Ireland in a sectarian environment, and a few posters here know my RL story. I'm back home almost a year now again, working remotely while I help out with some home issues. These paramilitary organisations have their own goals. They do entrap young people in their organizations, have their own "enforcers", today their "business" is mostly drugs and other crime. You can see that to this day here. It's become even more complex in recent years, because they now have both illegal and legitimate businesses.

I have no way to quantify it, but they certainly do seem have a lot of support in the community. They also seem totally "off-limits" with respect to policing (I do acknowledge we got good support from two younger DUP councillors on the issues we had/have).

Bottom line is that these organisations often have their own goals, not those of the broader community.

(Context: I work in a large software development company, and have several Israeli friends/colleagues. I only here their side of the story, but even that seems very nuanced)

In response the PM, no I'm not referring to the IRA in the above post. I'm referring to the Unionist paramilitaires, that is the only experience I which I can personally comment. My point is these organisations, even when they have a lot of community support, have their own agenda not aligned with the community they claim to represent. I'm not posting any more on this topic, as a result of my family situation.