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Conflict in the Middle East

To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

1000 replies

MistyMooPup · 10/10/2023 12:14

Not all of Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will obliterate Hamas. But undoubtedly hundred if not thousands of civilians will now be killed.

I’m not sure what Hamas thought the end game if this would be? What have the Iranians convinced them of? This was a sophisticated operation, outside help was given for definite.

I’m not sure it’s possible to rationalise with dehumanised terrorists, neither am I sure what the end game will be, but I just can’t understand what Hamas expected if not a total war/strikes from Israel in retaliation.

OP posts:
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beachcitygirl · 11/10/2023 14:37

Dominic Waghorn sky News international editor now stating clearly that the IDF have no reports of beheaded babies.

Bel trew of the independent who was the first to report this has now apologised & walked back on her report

What kind of sick mind makes that lie up & what kind of arseholes spread it as if it's fact.

beachcitygirl · 11/10/2023 14:39

Barry Makonde editor in chief of Reuters now stating that never in his career has he seen such hideous misinformation spread so quickly.

Be very very careful people. Truth matters

EasternStandard · 11/10/2023 14:47

Which atrocities did happen?

There is video footage showing it

Still much barbarism and hate filled attack

20questions · 11/10/2023 14:59

Glitterdavies · 11/10/2023 14:20

There are 300,000 reservists waiting to go in at the boarder and according to the Mail a top Israeli offical said they are going to make Gaza a tent city and bomb every building to the ground.

I think we know what's going to happen next.There will be a genocide of people and the world will sit by and say that this is Israel defending itself.

The number of Palestinians killed by the Israeli army is almost at the number that Hamas killed and they haven't even begun their ground offensive yet.The safe corridor for Gazans to leave has been bombed there is nowhere for them to go except await to die.

A lot of Palestinians will know that this is their last day alive and will probably being hugging their children and trying to distract them until it happens, so fucking sad.

Like being trapped in a sinking ship or a burning building.

It's devastating for sure.

What are Hamas doing to protect their people - the people who they, themselves terrorise and who live in fear - who were forcibly made to vote for them (around 2009 I think) and where they have not had a democratic election since?

Hamas have been silent - no doubt hiding in their underground war tunnels (built with the £ms that were given to them to provide infrastructure/support for their people but was totally misappropriated).
For starters..hand back the hostages - babies, children, elderly, raped women etc. That would be a good starting point.
But Hamas, along with other annihilistic death cults..al-shabaab boko haram, ISIS to name but a few.. are not the slightest bit concerned in the well being of their "brothers and sisters". They are useful pawns.
Use some critical thinking! Easier to blame others - especially Israel/Jewish people - than look closer..much closer..to the source.

Efacsen · 11/10/2023 15:10

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

A humanitarian safe passage from Gaza into Egypt is currently being negotiated by US, Israeli and Egyptian governments - US Defence spokesman last night

On the other side of the Gaza-Egyptian border is the vast wasteland of the N Sinai Desert with no major towns before Cairo over 300 miles away so very different from refugees fleeing into Poland

I'd guess there will need to be some extensive plans by humanitarian agencies put in place so more like the refugees leaving Syria into Turkey but more extreme

SinnerBoy · 11/10/2023 15:14

SomeCatFromJapan · Today 13:10

What has just happened has been carried out by Hamas who are the elected leaders of Gaza.

If by "elected," you mean "seized power in a bloody coup," then you're right.

Efacsen · 11/10/2023 15:15

beachcitygirl · 11/10/2023 14:37

Dominic Waghorn sky News international editor now stating clearly that the IDF have no reports of beheaded babies.

Bel trew of the independent who was the first to report this has now apologised & walked back on her report

What kind of sick mind makes that lie up & what kind of arseholes spread it as if it's fact.

It's the fog of war

Reminds of when Saddam Husseins army was accused of turfing prem babies out of incubators in Kuwait - and TBH I can't even remember if it was true or not

Also German army accused of doing terrible things to babies in WWII

SomeCatFromJapan · 11/10/2023 15:24

If by "elected," you mean "seized power in a bloody coup," then you're right.

No there was an actual election? Granted there hasn't been one since and I'd certainly be the last to claim that is a democracy or that Hamas have any mandate or legitimacy left.

LostAtTheCrossRoad · 11/10/2023 15:27

I don't think anyone I know is saying that Israel or the Jewish people 'deserved' this, I take exception to that. But does the Israeli government want to obliterate Hamas and Palestine off the map in exactly the same way that Hamas want to eradicate Jews? Yes they do. Do I think the Israeli government is likely to try and rescue its hostages? No. Sadly I think they will be mourned as martyrs

The whole situation is an utter tragedy with vast numbers of innocent lives lost on both sides whilst political and other leaders make decisions for them.

SinnerBoy · 11/10/2023 15:27

SomeCatFromJapan · Today 15:24

No there was an actual election?

17 years ago and then they bumped off the opposition and retained dictatorial power, refusing more elections. I can't believe that you think that gives them a democratic mandate!

SomeCatFromJapan · 11/10/2023 15:32

17 years ago and then they bumped off the opposition and retained dictatorial power, refusing more elections. I can't believe that you think that gives them a democratic mandate!

I literally just said in my previous post that I don't. I don't think there's going to be any progression on peace in the area till they're gone.

SinnerBoy · 11/10/2023 15:33

Well, why did you say that they were elected, unless you were trying to make that very point? It makes no sense, otherwise.

AbsoluteYawns · 11/10/2023 15:41

LostAtTheCrossRoad · 11/10/2023 15:27

I don't think anyone I know is saying that Israel or the Jewish people 'deserved' this, I take exception to that. But does the Israeli government want to obliterate Hamas and Palestine off the map in exactly the same way that Hamas want to eradicate Jews? Yes they do. Do I think the Israeli government is likely to try and rescue its hostages? No. Sadly I think they will be mourned as martyrs

The whole situation is an utter tragedy with vast numbers of innocent lives lost on both sides whilst political and other leaders make decisions for them.

That's not the language I've ever seen Israel use. They don't celebrate with sweets and gunshots or have martyrs.
They grieve their dead.

DownNative · 11/10/2023 15:50

SinnerBoy · 11/10/2023 15:27

SomeCatFromJapan · Today 15:24

No there was an actual election?

17 years ago and then they bumped off the opposition and retained dictatorial power, refusing more elections. I can't believe that you think that gives them a democratic mandate!

Both Hamas and Fatah are armed. Fatah's armed wing is known as Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (AAMB) and the logo of Fatah features three weapons, one of which is a grenade.

By our democratic standards, neither of these parties are democratic. But these are the parties Palestinians have been voting for.

You're correct that Hamas hasn't held elections in Gaza since 2006, but Fatah also cancelled an election which polls suggested they were going to be humiliated by Hamas at the polls again. Two-thirds of Palestinians opposed Abbas' decision to cancel the 2021 election.

You can definitely argue that by our democratic norms neither Hamas or Fatah have an entirely democratic mandate.

To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?
Spambod · 11/10/2023 15:51

this thread is moving so fast Thankyou to the considered responses from informed posters like lemony.
not the batshit ones though.
saffron made a good point upthread about who Palestinians support politically.
when we see interviews with residents of Gaza they never mention hamas.
this is very telling that they leave this out. They don’t mention or talk about their leadership, their government. This suggests very strong censorship to me.
there was a poll info upthread that said about 52% or a high level support hamas. The population of Gaza is very young and hamas were elected in 2006 with no elections since. Many gazans did not vote for hamas but have never known any other leadership.
do gazans have real support for hamas or do they very privately feel hamas is a dictatorship that has them in its grip. Do all gazans believe their esteemed leaders do what is best for them from their estates in Qatar?

andtheworldrollson · 11/10/2023 15:54

From what I have read both sides want to kill each other off - the Israel position of flattening the homes of 2.3 million trapped people , turning off power , bombing hospitals and schools doesn't sound like anything harmless or targeted at terrorists. Similarly the hamas actions are barbaric

Each side is dreadful with innocent Jews and Muslims who just want to live their lives being affected both in those countries and around the world

Why it's blown up now o would love to know

DownNative · 11/10/2023 16:04

There's a lot of terrorist groups in Gaza and West Bank.

Hamas
Palestine Islamic Jihad
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
Popular Resistance Committees
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Palestine Liberation Organization
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command
Harakat al-Sabireen
Palestinian Liberation Front

DdraigGoch · 11/10/2023 16:09

Head pollster Khalil Shikaki, who has been surveying Palestinian public opinion for more than two decades, called it a “dramatic” shift, but said it also resembles previous swings toward Hamas during times of confrontation. Those all dissipated within three to six months as Hamas failed to deliver on promises of change.

BlurredEdges · 11/10/2023 16:18

beachcitygirl · 11/10/2023 14:37

Dominic Waghorn sky News international editor now stating clearly that the IDF have no reports of beheaded babies.

Bel trew of the independent who was the first to report this has now apologised & walked back on her report

What kind of sick mind makes that lie up & what kind of arseholes spread it as if it's fact.

If they were 'just' massacred, not beheaded, does that make it OK then?

The Soham murderer didn't behead Holly and Jessica, as far as I know. Is that OK then?

FFS.

BlurredEdges · 11/10/2023 16:21

The Times newspaper is still reporting this:

‘Babies had their throats cut’: how Kfar Aza kibbutz massacre unfolded

Even the most hardened Israeli officers found it hard to take in what they were seeing in the devastation left by Hamas, Anshel Pfeffer reports

All day, military chaplains and search teams tenderly wrapped tiny bodies, carrying them to waiting stretchers that bore them away from the nightmare of Kfar Aza.
The horrors that Israelis endured at the hands of Hamas in this kibbutz, a mile from the suburbs of Gaza City, defy belief. As they surged through Israeli defences, the Palestinian militants attacked Kfar Aza from four directions, starting with the “youngsters’ quarter” on the western side, closest to Gaza.
Little remained today of the homes in the kibbutz: only shards of coffee cups and blackened bedframes. And bodies.

Every few minutes soldiers broke the silence to announce that more dead people had been discovered. Some said that up to 40 babies’ corpses had been found among entire families who were shot dead as they slept. The children in particular appeared to have suffered gruesome deaths: there were claims that some had had their throats cut.
“I’ve served as a combat soldier and officer for 39 years,” Major General Itai Veruv said as he stood with red-rimmed eyes at the entrance to the kibbutz. “I’ve never seen anything that comes close to this. It’s not even something that our parents knew. This is something out of the world of our grandfathers back in Europe, from the pogroms and the Holocaust.”

As more bodies emerged, it seemed likely that Kfar Aza would turn out to be the scene of the biggest massacre of this war, the greatest loss of civilian life in a terrorist attack in Israeli history. It was part of Hamas’s assault on more than 15 communities, kibbutzim and towns on Saturday morning. An estimated 1,000 Israelis were killed and scores more, including women, elderly people and young children, were kidnapped.

In Kfar Aza officers were cautious not to give numbers of the dead on record, but privately they expect the worst. Yesterday more than 100 bodies were found in Kibbutz Be’eri, to the south. “This one is probably worse,” one officer said. “We are afraid we’ll find hundreds of bodies.”

Yoav Gallant, the Israeli defence minister, said: “Anyone who came to decapitate, to murder women and Holocaust survivors will be annihilated at the height of our strength and without compromise. What we witnessed in the towns was a massacre.”

The general, Veruv, said: “You see the babies, the mothers, the fathers in their bedrooms, in their protection rooms, and how the terrorist kills them. It’s not a war; it’s not a battlefield. It’s a massacre.”

He had arrived at Kfar Aza on Saturday to join the fighting. Now he said he had gathered the media to impress upon them the scale of the slaughter. “When I discovered what had happened here, I remembered how General Eisenhower, when the American army liberated concentration camps in Germany, immediately brought the media so the world would know.”
Asked about Israel’s planned response, he said: “We’re going towards something difficult and bitter.”
Four months ago I was in this kibbutz. Now it’s a murder scene
Younger officers and soldiers who had fought through the kibbutz, taking it back house by house, were not prepared to talk about their feelings on discovering the bodies. “We have a long war ahead of us now,” one officer said. “There will be time to come to terms with what we saw here after the war.”

Among those who have died here were Itai and Hadar Berdichevsky, who, as the gunfire broke out, managed to hide their ten-month-old twins in their “safe room” at home. Then Hamas fighters burst in and shot them dead. The babies remained alone for 14 hours before they were rescued by soldiers and taken to their grandmother.
Lieutenant Colonel Karmi Meir, commander of the reserve battalion of paratroopers that bore the brunt of the fighting for three days, emphasised that there were also stories of survival among the destruction and death.
“We succeeded in rescuing a big group of 50 parents and young children on the first night of the war,” he said. “And we managed to kill all the terrorists without any casualties to my battalion. We fulfilled our mission and emerged safely. That’s our duty. If only we could have arrived here earlier.”

Israel | The Times & The Sunday Times

Discover expert articles about Israel from The Times and The Sunday Times. Page 1 of 44

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/topic/israel?page=1

BlurredEdges · 11/10/2023 16:22

I am also starting to hear from extended family and friends who have lost loved ones. I have many personal messages, and posts from social media, of the horrors that have been inflicted on people - many of them Holocaust survivors or their children/grandchildren, or people who came on the Kindertransport.

SideBob · 11/10/2023 16:22

What kind of sick mind makes that lie up & what kind of arseholes spread it as if it's fact.
Oh get over yourself, it was headline news yesterday. Of course people believe it to be true. When was this even retracted?

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