30s TTC: Club BESHicana, drinks are free and we're hungry like the WOOFL! The MSDP continues...

[Scorpette]

Come on in, collect the Grolsch bottle tops for your DM shoes at the door

We're going all-out 80s for the continuation of the Mass Summer Diffment Project: John Hughes films playing back-to-back and on BESH FM, DJ ChoCho will be playing our all-time 80s faves, from New Romantics to Synth to Goth to Hair Metal to Pop and back again (no Fields of The Nephilim, mind). Our bartenders and waiters are Ducky from Pretty in Pink, Ralph Macchio (the Karate Kid) and Corey Haim (back from the dead especially for us) and unlike most of the real 80s, we actually get to booze!

Here's hoping the authentic 80s vibe will trick our bodies into thinking we've got the ovaries of teenagers!

(Not to mention tricking them into being super skinny and able to eat whatever we want and staying that way!)

There's plenty of Babycham and Ice Magic to pour over ice-cream in the Pit and Metal Mickey will bring them to the wretched at the click of a finger.

So whaddya waiting for? Slip on the ra-ra skirts, slap on the blue eyeliner and let's get winning those baybeez! Last one in the pool's a psycho hose beast!

Apologies for charging thru the middle of the atheism debate last night, hadn't refreshed.

Also sorry not to have welcomed back bangershasgotlovelybangers...is good to see you, sorry you are poorly.

And again, twink if you are there - am thinking of you today.

'sorry,sorry,sorry....'

I sound like hugh fucking grant.

Also thinking of you Twink and hoping you get some good news today.

twink my thoughts are with you today, x

Lefty agnostic humanist, probably, here with a very atheist CH. (Something about Thunderbirds being on at the same time as church. Scarred him for life.) I don't think I am atheist as I am not so much AGAINST as he is. Anyhoo, wanted to ask: is anyone watching The Rev on BBC? I only watched the first episode before I went away, but I thought it was quite good.

Twinkle thinking of you.

WARNING: LOOOOONG!
Ok, will explain about indoctrination. These are my opinions, okay? Am not saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

1. The existence of God is a belief, not a truth, therefore it automatically is wrong and quite bizarre to teach it as a truth and a fact. Totally unacceptable. It'd be unacceptable to teach Lord of The Rings as ancient history, so why is religion any different?

2. To me, and other Atheists, God, Jesus and all the rest are fictional characters; I do not believe they exist (I don't believe Jesus existed, but realise this is a bit extreme even for other Atheists). Teaching about Jesus and God as any sort of fact or reality, therefore, is as ridiculous and offensive as teaching kids that Gandalf and Tinkerbell exist and are watching and controlling them. I don't want children of mine to be told lies and persuaded that fairy stories are truth. Saying that God will be angry if they don't share or fight with friends is as cruel and as silly to me as saying that the 101 Dalmations are going to come and bite them if they're bad!

3. People think that teaching religion, even in a lovely, fluffy, happyclappy way, teaches kids morality and makes them feel better about Grandparents dying and so on. I think the exact opposite. People need to live in the real world and be sensible, logical and functional. Religion does not facilitate this - its purpose has always been to keep those not in power ignorant, scared, confused and accepting of a crap deal in life. I find it totally immoral to make gullible children believe that there is an invisible man watching and judging them and that they must do or not do certain things to please and avoid displeasing this invisible man called God. It sets up a mindset that is the antithesis of what we need for a truly functioning society. Instead of being allowed to trust proven facts and truths, they are fed nonsense about how and why things are. They are made to feel behoven to an invisible father figure who has very contradictory whims as to what's good and bad. They are fed made-up stuff and propaganda from centuries ago, nearly all of it irrelevant to modern life and much of it offensive. And above all, the thing I find most offensive, is that it does the opposite of what society requires of good citizens - it actively prevents people from finding morality and goodness from within, from common sense and decency, from observation, perception and sensitivity and from taking responsibility for your own behaviour and decisions. Religion innately works to make people feel guilty and dependent on an invisible Daddy, and that they must follow his rules or else, no room for independence or working things out for themselves. And people bossed around by a strict father always do things resentfully, not from the heart. I am a good, moral person because I see what's right and act accordingly. I do it because it is what is right, not because I'm worried that a deity will judge me if I don't. Religious belief works to restrict freedom of mind and through that, action. It discourages proper analytical thought and individualism.

4. NOT teaching kids the lovely, fluffy stuff does not mean that the alternative is a dour, grey, joyless form of sucking the magic out of childhood. I felt the wonderment of childhood and the magic of the world and had so much love and amazing uplifting experiences without once attributing any of it to a supernatural entity. Knowing the scientific facts about the world and life made me feel very clever, grown-up and in control of my life, not sad and scared about death and so on.

5. People just don't get why Christianity being a given in schools as some sort of truth or fact winds Atheists up. But to me, it's as silly as Scientology or believing in fairies, and I'm sure people would call it indoctrination if schoolkids were being taught the works of L Ron Hubbard as truth. That's what any religious teaching feels like to me.

6. I have no problems if schools teach comparative religion and make it clear that these are all belief, and also teach that many people do not believe in anything and why. But teaching religion as though it's a given? No way, Jose!

Being an Atheist is not to lack something; it is to have something wonderful added - the restoration of full self and mind. I am unburdened by superstition and myth and I am truly independent. Totally responsible for myself and my actions. I love mankind because it is instinctive, not what I have been told I have to do. I see how short and small life is and want to make a difference and to make others' lives good too. Being an Atheist is challenging and it is glorious, not sad and empty and colourless. I want that freedom, power and clarity for my future children.

Sorry it's so long, but it's not a simple matter. Cheers for reading, all who do.

Thinking of you today Twink.

Humanist here - had humanist wedding, once applied for job at the BHA (didn't get it, boo). The website is good if you're interested in what it means to be a humanist, Aries - I would probably describe it as the most positive aspects of atheism.

Like Scorps, I became an atheist at a very young age - got kicked out of Sunday school at the age of 7 for saying it was all fairy stories. A fairly scientific education confirmed me as a Darwinist/Dawkinist.

HO used to be sort of wafty/hippy/spiritual (e.g. trained in reiki), but I've knocked most of that out of him through years of debate! He teaches in a Catholic School (only job he could get at the time) and sees the good, the bad and the ugly within that .

Oooh, Scorps that is a long one! I think I agree with you on all points, but somehow the energy to oppose something that is so ingrained has abanoned me. It's not just religion, it is also tradition that people cling onto. What does piss me off though is all the people somehow thinking that you are IMMORAL if you are not religious. Morality only exists in religion. Nowhere else.

Is there a decent international / IB school in London?

Good post Scorps - I'm a little embarrassed to have cross-posted with it! You should put it/something like it on your blog.

Oooh, Lyra, Scorpio mini-doubters are GO! I got bollocked at school at about 7 for asking the Head HOW Jesus could do the loaves and fishes thang, when he was encouraging us to discuss what he'd just old us. Obvy didn't want us to really discuss it, as couldn't give me an answer and just started shouting at me. Not the only time I got bollocking for questioning what religious stuff we were being told What's worse is that it was meant to be totally secular!

TYF attributes his terrible shyness on getting told off so much for constantly raising his hand and saying 'but Miss, that doesn't make sense' in religious classes (he did go to a C of E school). but on the other hand, he really enjoyed all the singing

Mountie, it's important to find the energy and speak out, I feel. I have always had a v hard time ever accepting that things continue just because 'they've always been done that wrong'. Always had an overly keen sense of what's just and what's unjust, me. If something's outdated and wrong, then I can't handle the thought of it being blithely continued. And I say that as someone who finds change v hard, so am not belittling the need for tradition. But truth trumps traditions.

Interestingly, we have a family friend who's a retired Vicar (actually was a big cheese in a massive diocese) and he doesn't believe Jesus existed and sees God as the same sort of force described in Taoism and he says a lot more vicars, etc., than you'd imagine think similarly. He sees Christianity as series of allegories and tales that form a great moral code that people have always followed, so if it ain't broke, why fix it. I admire his opinions.

Another one thinking of you today Twinks.

Lyra a humanist wedding sounds great, would love to know more about what it involved that made it humanist as opposed to just not religious. I'm also very amused by the idea of you getting kicked out of Sunday school!

Scorps I absolutely see where you're coming from on indoctrination, what I'm not sure of is that you get any more of that in CofE schools than your standard run of the mill primaries (Catholic ones are probably a different story). I've not got direct experience, but from what I hear they don't seem to do any more hymn singing, nativity plays, vaguely religious school assemblies etc than we did in a non religious school (which you would still object to, but if they're doing it in all schools it's harder to get away from). I may be wrong though, and I'm sure it varies from school to school.

Ha, another cross-post, Lyra - am going to write a blog about it, actually; is why it's on my mind! And will no doubt shamelessly basically just repeat what I put here, heh heh!

I'm going to shamelessly dodge the religion/atheism debate because a)I have spent my entire life being mocked and laughed at for something I could never adequately explain and have no wish to replicate the experience here (not that this is what's happening here, I hasten to add!) and b) despite being now a non-churchgoer that has gravely disappointed parents and pastors and elders by my worldly ways (!) I have enough faith, and enough love for those who have lived humble, compassionate, selfless, quiet lives because of their faith, to be easily wounded on this subject. I therefore draw up my parapet , smile cheerily, and instead send love to Twinks and Gin, and tell you about my trip to the docs!

Good news is all bloods and scans etc. so far normal. Only half the story of course as the OM has yet to JIAP and I have to do my 21s and my smear. Don't ask why I haven't got round to that yet

On the throat - well my Lord how gratifying. The nice lady doctor shone her little torch down my gullet, reeled backward and said "Eeeeeeew that's REALLY nasty!". She then folded her arms, gave me a level sort of look, and said "Why on earth is your throat covered in ulcers?!". I sniffed bravely and said I didn't know. After a long chat she said it looked exactly like a nasty chemical burn, and we think that thos herbal cough sweets I've been chugging for days to settle my incessant tickly cough have given me bad burn inside my throat, which is now possibly infected. She took a swab which HURT and I am therefore going to spend the day eating ice-cream.

I hope that made all of you feel deeply, deeply queasy

I do indeed feel v queasy for you - and v sorry for you too. Blahdy hippy shit making you worse; you clearly need Proppah Drucks and fast! So sorry you feel ill - wish we could take it away for you. Is good news about tests so far, yay Now get cracking on the rest

(BTW Not trying to bait you, but people who are wonderful and lead good lives would do so regardless of religion because they are clearly innately Good People.)

Oh, and I realise the irony, y'all, of having a horoscope-based moniker and having a go against religion! 'Tis just that it's a RL nickname that I really like ('cos I am a shortarse, and, as one pal put it, 'amusingly stereotypical as a Scorpio'). I even have a name necklace with it on and everyfink!

I know right?! I got them because they had TRADITIONAL emblazoned upon the lovely stripy olde-worlde packet!

BASTIDS.

where is chocho? Does anyone know how many weeks she is now? Chocho I have been thinking about you and wondering how it's all going.

Get us being all deep & meaningful, who'd 'ave thunk it?

Personally, another non-believer here. But although I don't believe in God & stuff I like the idea of believing in something. Not entirely sure what though. I once heard that angels leave white feathers as "calling cards" so whenever I see a feather instead of thinking of some manky, bald-patched bird I always say hello & have a chat to my beloved Poppa (crazy made-up name for Grandfather), who passed away 2 years ago. Irony is if he could see me do that he'd tease me beyond belief! None of my family are religious, hence none of us christened. My mum must had a funny turn when I was about 15 & wanted me, brother & sister all christened together. She tried her hardest to bribe us with tales of presents & a party, but none of us fell for that.

The boyf went to a Catholic school & his mum is prolly more Catholic than his dad. She is also the biggest hypocrite as she waltzed off from her marriage onto a string of fellas. The boyf & I have talked religion - I told him if God existed then I wouldn't worship him as I thought he (of course its a bloke!) was a twat (apologies if anyone offended, truly not intention, just my view) for letting all the horrible shiz happen. This strong view came to me at the funeral of a friend when I was 17 who had been killed in a car accident. Another school friend who was in the car attended the funeral in a wheelchair following his injuries. Seeing his family (who I'd known for years) go through that, seeing teachers cry, it was just one of the worst sights of my life. The boyf wittered on about free will or sommat, so I said if his nephew was running towards a road would he interfere or let the nephew have free will & get run over? I just can't understand it. The boyf doesn't really believe either, I just think after years of Catholic schooling its something deep inside.

He also teases me that if we're forced to go to church for whatever reason I have a comedy black cloud that follows me around. That makes me feel warm & fuzzy .

I've also found myself envious at times of people who have a strong belief. Not often, but at times of deep despair (mainly losing said friend & Poppa), it seems to help them. Its not of the actual belief I'm envious of though, just the peace & help they seem to have.

That said if Jeebus, God, whoever has the power to give me a baybee, then I'm in!!

I've called the FC again to discuss my (non)diagnosis & prescription of Clomid - 1st appointment is 9 September!! Fucking hell. However, the receptionist was lovely & said they have a few people cancel over summer holidays to to ring back & check. I have her number on speed dial....

Hope twinks is getting some good news.

bangers your throat sounds delightful!!! Hope you now have proper drugs.

Miss Piggy style karate chops all round.

I stick with agnostic.

Laurie Bloody hell 9th Sept I thought my appointment on the 18th Aug was a piss take...

choos when did you book your appointment? Ironically Sept would be the end of my 6 months of Clomid (not that I've taken it this month & prolly won't until I've attended appointment). Bloody useless, eh?

I'm atheist too but was brought up going to Sunday School until about age 10. I too think if people can draw strength from their faith then I have nothing against it for them, though I do get upset about the innate sexism embedded in JudaoChristianity (and others) that permeates society. I can't quite believe people take the Bible so seriously, to my mind clearly being an historical document reflecting values of the times and folk tales handed down. But some of the stories are quite good (my not-god-daughter's parents are staunch atheists and I keep having to stop myself buying her a toy Noah's Ark - I don't equate the story to any kind of religious message - so far I have remembered in the nick of time).

I did hear (not sure if true) that there was more evidence for the existance of Jesus as a historical fact than there is of Caesar. It's a separate point in my mind to whether he was "the son of God" etc.

I have experienced "Christians" thinking their behaviour is the correct behaviour due to their faith. Although this is also true of non-Christians. Basically I guess I don't like being told what to think if it's based on some out-of-date code. (This includes my mother and her working-mothers-views).

And, because I am having that sort of day, I can't remember what the point I came on to make was and am therefore unable to check that I have made it. So do feel free to ignore.

Hope everyone's ok today, have a round of fishslaps and papercuts.

Hello all. just popping by to say sorry for not being around. I was at uni all weekend and then y/day Mr Stew had an anaphylactic reaction on his way to work so I ended up spending the day farming out dogs, children etc and going to pick him up from A&E in That London. And now working all day till 7.15 and then inlaws arrive at half seven till friday night, so I likely won't be back much either this week!

Having serious conversations here about whether or not to keep trying or not, and if so how long for. I feel like it's taking a heavy toll tbh. SO anyway, we're trying this month, which will involve shagging the SECOND the ILs leave, and then we'll see. I can't believe we're actually seriously talking about giving up, I expected it to feel awful but in fact it just felt like a bloody relief. But I'm not sure we're quite there yet.

So that's me. Massive nipple tweaks and gin fizzes to all, esp my bitches Aries and HBPencil, and thoughts going out to all waiting for scans etc. Will try and check in and keep up a bit over the next few days.

So I'm a bit gone, but you're not forgotten.

Oh Cass, that's some stresses you're under there, pal. It sounds as if you and Mr Cass (bless him - I hope he's OK: that's some serious allergy , proper like a Casualty episode) are able to talk things through together, which is so important I think.

And plus, you do know that the minute you give up, or think it too late, there's bound to be a little incident in the bathroom with a piss-stick and a feeling of utter disbelief, right?

More seriously, will keep the BESHly flame burning. I feel I want to say, don't give up, but you never actually will, unless you give up shagging entirely, and therefore, as I tell myself every few days, where there's love, there's hope.

Cass, that sounds like a Very Big Decision indeed. Like Bangers says, it's great that you and Mr Stew can communicate so well. But just bear in mind that you can take a break and then go back to TTC. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, even if it feels like that (as we all know too well). My 2 months of for medical reasons this year really recharged me mind, body and spirit.

Don't be a stranger!