To TTC or not to TTC, that is the question... as Hamlet sort of said about something else entirely

[CHW]

Hi,
Had few glasses of wine and have spent large part of the evening on this site. I am in two minds about a baby - or really, at the age of 35 (but Type 1 diabetic which can complicate thingss) and really ought to make a decision about whether to have a family or not.
I worry about cost, the changes it will make to our lives and, well, if I am actually just happy as I am. Me and DH discussed going for it, so to speak, sometime after the start of Aug (as did the London Triathlon before then so couldn't before then) and decided we would once the triathlon was out the way. Now it is and we are both stalling. But it is playing on both our minds - in the do we, or don't we way.

My babyometer keeps going haywire - any tips or things for me to also consider which may help us make a decision. I am also wondering if we are simply analysing things too much but beeing diabetic makes things more complicated (ie they need to be planned, in an ideal world at least.) Any help or food for thoughts would be MASSIVELY appreciated!

Morning,

I am writing this surreptitiously at work (will cut and paste it after from this word doc) so, as I am not able to look at all your recent postings sorry if I miss something or someone out!

I am with you all on the diabetic thing, and also that the medical people do have to make the assumption you know less rather than more (so don't worry, no offence taken HP). I was diagnosed when I lived abroad (aged 4) and, I think, was taught a very different way with regards to handling it - in retrospect, the treatment we got was brilliant. I think it would have been the most recent theories and developments and, as it was private, they had all the time in the world to go through things and explain everything. In other words, due to this, I have always taken charge of it myself (well, my mum did when I was little obviously) and am a bit of a control freak in this respect (but not with any other.) I think I get my back up when I am spoken to as if I am NOT as knowledgeable etc as I patently am, but I also do realise they have to cover themselves too - I do, honest! A good example of this is a course that my nurse at the GP's is always trying to get me on. The course is to teach you how to alter your insulin doses to the amount of food / activity you are doing. Great idea, I agree, but I have been doing EXACTLY this since 1995 (it was in 1995 that I asked to go on the current insulin I am on as it would give me more flexibility, this course is something that has come up far more recently.) I don't want to take time off to go on a course I don't see as necessary so now have written on my notes that I am 'refusing to attend' which, I think, makes me appear uncooperative which I don't think is a fair observation.

Anyway, I won't go on more as I have said it all before and I think we all know where one another are coming from. More pressingly, I have got this appt for Thursday and have just got an email from boss arranging a team meeting at 10.30am on Thursday. Bugger! So, I'm going to have to wangle out of it (she's nice, my boss, but can be a bit funny and I feel even worse asking for time off as I was also off on Mon and Tues with this horrid cold thingy.) Luckily, I have the letter with me so will wave that about (gives a bit of credibility - dear me, the guilt! You wouldn't think I was 35 would you! and also stress that it's non-changeable. Wish me luck!

Suerock I join the others in their anger on your behalf over the comments from your MIL! No matter how many ways you look at it, it's bloody rude! While we all know age is a factor and obviously shouldn't be dismissed, my nurse says not to worry about it too much (I brought up the age thing when I saw her a while back and she, if anything, played it down.) Also, loads of my friends have left it till now (and most are older than me rather than younger) and none of them have had any problems. I sincerely hope your MIL thought about what she said later on that evening and then kicked herself for it. The other thing is, (and it has made me feel very lucky that I haven't had this), it's nobody else's bloody business whether you decide to have a family or not. Grrr!

Right, boss has come in so need to bite the bullet and tell her I cannot make this meeting...

LST Least it was the Myla website you nearly got caught with rather than, say, the fetish dog masks you can get on the Coco De Mer website!

God forbid, confused! But little danger of that - I think Coco de Mer is probably a bit advanced for me at the moment... Who knows where this will all end, though!

And thanks for the encouragement, YTD - I'm also generally a Bravissimo devotee, though it's not cheap (but probably a lot cheaper than propely nice underwear - you can tell I'm generally at the lower end of the spectrum!). I'm going to London with a friend who is over from Ireland this weekend so might have to pop in to a few places, if only to window shop and wonder at this brave new world... Has anyone ever bought underwear at TK Maxx? Feels a bit low-rent, somehow, but I'm so broke this year that I'm wondering if that might be a solution for getting hold of these sexy brands. Mind you, just matching would be an improvement on the current situation, and as HP says, will he really know the difference?! (Still, it's as much about getting myself in the mood as him tbh.)

Anyway, enough about this! Hope the meeting with your boss went ok, confused and she was alright about you having the day off. And I can't believe that about the 'refusing to attend' note - it's so ridiculous. Seethe on your behalf God bless the NHS and all that, but their systems are spectacularly dumb and inflexible at times. And add to that an unhelpful individual... Still, let's hope the clinic isn't like that - you do get some great individuals too (or maybe I've just been lucky).

I've also finally got an appointment to talk about IVF - next Wednesday. Am having to miss 4 hours of labs for my course, which is very annoying, but these appointments are so hard to get that now I've got to grips (sort of) with the course I'll have to prioritize this other matter this time. Luckily we're carrying on with something from this week, rather than doing a new experiment, so it's not as bad as it could be.

Hope you're doing OK, Suerock, silly family aside. And HP and everyone else. Any greenness around?

Hi LST In answer to the TKMaxx question, I am not an expert, but I know some swear by it. I am never able to find things clothes wise when I go myself, but think that undies are probably easier.

Thank you for your indignation on my behalf! The ILs are not really too intrusive, and I don?t see them that often anyway. But I do wish people in general (present company excepted ? where anything goes!) wouldn?t assume that
a) you definitely want children unless you?ve explicitly stated you don?t
b) deciding to have a baby implies getting pregnant instantly
c) you want to share all, or indeed any, of the huge decisions that go with deciding to have children
d) it?s only the woman?s decision about, and participation in, getting pregnant that counts! (I was so tempted to suggest to MIL that her agitation should be equally directed at DH, but thankfully didn?t)
Maybe I?m being oversensitive and need to develop some sort of mental rhino hide?

TKMaxx ? I?ve had some great deals on really nice stuff there, though never tried to buy undies. I?d have thought it was worth a look if you have the stamina to trawl through a whole load of stuff that isn?t what you want.

Good to hear your appointment has come through LST ? here?s hoping both you and confused get the answers you want next week!

Morning all, a quick pre-work post before I set off on my commute.

Suerock, I totally agree with all your points, especially 'd'. Every time my MIL makes a wistful (sp?) comment about how she will never have any grandchildren, I bite my tongue and refrain from telling her that its her son who has pulled the 'halt' cord and in the process nearly broken up our relationship due to bitter recriminations and lack of common goals.

Anyway, better go, but back later, have done some further nursery research. Have a good Friday!

Right, Im back.

So, I contacted a nursery close to work to request pricing info. After some humiliating back-and-forth emails where the manager asked the age of my children (er, -18 months, perhaps) and then got confused and slightly suspicious when I confessed to not even being pregnant, I finally got the price list. Well, its not pretty, but after application of possible future fictional political vouchers, comes in at about £650 a month. And DH didnt faint when I waved the sheet under his nose. He did say 'Is this your way of telling me you want a baby?', which was nice. Right now, I can think of many things Id like to spend £650 a month on, (ohhhh, the shoes) but the info is good to know.

Oh dear me, Im feeling green. A rich, deep green. The greenest Ive ever felt. But DHs reluctance, the money and The Fear are still holding me back. And also, never google 'fourth degree tear'.

Any news from anyone else? Im loving the halloween smileys by the way.....

The first thing I have done since turning on my pc (we were away for the weekend and haven't been back long) is Google 'fourth degree tear.' Jesus! Needless to say, I am not quite as green as I was before I looked!

£650 a month is big, but perhaps not as ghastly as it could be. I can also think of 101 things (100000001 things) I'd rather spend that on too, but at least it is not astronomically high - say in the £1000's - which makes it a no no. I too am concerned about the cash side of things but I also think how many must do it who have less earning power than myself and DH and still seem okay.

HP is your DH coming round to the idea, or not even vaguely, it's just been mentioned more?

I have gone off the idea a bit, and so has DH, after our weekend. Went to see some very dear friends who have two kids (one is 6 and the other is 2 - both girls and both lovely, in very different ways.) The parents are great with them - considerate, firm but kind and so on - but my god it looks like hard work. Even they asked on Friday, albeit jokingly, why on earth they decided to have another when they knew what it was like after the first time (and no major baby issues, like non-sleeping went on, it was comparatively plain sailing.) Made me wonder why on earth I would want to put myself and DH through that, and quite unable to see the point / reason why / good points and so on. However, me and DH discussed it when we took the dogs out today and came to the conclusion that it's the people we went to see and their outlook and approach. While they are both great people, their lifestyle is VERY conventional and steady and really quite dull (or at least I'd find it dull.) Plus, the house is quite small and you can't move for toys etc (and don't get me started on the bloody CBeebies et al which seemed to be on constantly!) While they are very dedicated parents, they seem to be only that - parents. They don't do much else (and don't seem to fussed about it either, which is fair enough.) The other friends I have with DC's are generally a lot more adventurous and also quite laid back with their children, doing things like taking them to festivals or going on holiday with several other couples with children of the same age and not doing ONLY child centered things.
Not sure if this is coming across well (I hope I don't sound like a borderline hippy! I can assure you I am not!) or, indeed accurately so let it summise with the fact that I was VERY red, then after discussions with DH we are still green. Just maybe not as green as HP!

Wow, greenness galore. And recovered greenness (on confused's part), which is almost more of an endorsement! I'm fairly green at the moment - have been for a while now, for the reasons I've mentioned. And DH seems in a reasonably good place about it all (though he's gone down to London to go out drinking with some friends tonight, night before TTC starts in earnest in my fertile week, which is very annoying as I'm sure that can't be a good thing...).

Glad - up to a point - to hear about the nursery stuff, HP in the sense that it could be worse, and hasn't put you off. (And, if only for the selfish reason that that's where I am, that you're feeling green generally.) It's not great, but not the worst you'd feared, which is something. (And thanks for doing and sharing this - it's quite useful for all of us...)

I quite understand about your reservations, confused - we have weekends like that. I find it almost worse when the kids are a bit older, like 6 or 7, and while being perfectly ok as kids go, are still hard work and (dare I say it) a bit boring to be with - even at an age when in theory I find them interesting. And you think "this is as good as it gets"! It's all quite scary. But as you say there are a range of parenting - and indeed living - styles and there is at least some degree of choice in how one does it.

I'm fairly committed to it now, anyway, what with the IVF plans and all.

And now for a mea culpa... Don't be too disappointed in me - I did try to look for underwear at the weekend, I really did, but was in big old London, and without having planned enough didn't quite find the right shops (and had a friend with me, who while boundlessly patient, didn't deserve too many hours of vicarious underwear shopping!). Anyway, I got some lacy semi-see-through knickers and lacy vests from M&S as a kind of halfway house. Not exactly burlesque, in fact really quite tame, but a start at least!

Realize my last post made me sound quite nasty re. boring children - who aren't boring at all, just children, and nice ones at that. There's also a lot of pleasure in being with them too, obviously. It is just the constraints you mention, confused on what you can do and how you have to live.

Evening LST! I'm not thinking you're being nasty at all. I am actually quite relieved that someone got what I meant as I wasn't sure if I was coming across how I wanted (and I call myself a writer - ha!) Yes, the constraits and general dullness of the whole child rearing thing would drive me insane, almost regardless of whether the children are lovely or utter monsters. I feel (hope!) I would be a bit more flexible and open minded, and still me me as well as someone's mum. Most of the friends I have in London are like that, it's only the two parents I saw on Friday that are, for wont of a better word, dull when it comes to the whole childrearing debacle.

Lacy semi-see through vests and knickers actually sound rather nice if you ask me! I am not even vaguely supervamp either and also think that confidence is the key to making almost any look work. Therefore, with the best will in the world, if 1/4 cup bra's and frilly crotchless pants aren't your thing you're going to look a naana anyway no matter how hard you tried. (By the way, think crotchless are hideous - very Ann Summers - just thought I'd mention it in case anyone got the wrong idea!) If you know your sizes, keep checking places like Ebay as you can often get (new) lovely stuff on there from places such as Myla or Agent Provocateur. And when you finally get pregnant, check out Hot Milk!

Hmm, with regard to your DH's boozing (and all of our boozing now I think of it) I can't work out how much damage this could potentially do. Obviously, necking bottles of vodka is going to be bloody stupid but does a heavy weekend, for example, make a massive difference or not much? And how much is massive anyway? And what is classified as a 'difference'? And what about us girlies? Are we hindering things big time by having a regular drink (while I'd like to say I drink less than the recommended 14 units a week I also know that's bollocks - while not a 'heavy' drinker, who doesn't often drink in the week etc etc, it is certainly more than 14 units a week when I do ) Is this bordering on madness if I am TTC? (By the way, this is not regular event but, to illustrate my point, I can easily polish off a bottle of wine by myself on Friday, then have a few pints out on Saturday and maybe one or two on Sunday - which is waaay more than 14 units a week I am ashamed to say!) Or do I just have to stay reasonably sensible and restrained? What's everyone else doing, or plan on doing when the time comes...?

Answers on a postcard please...

Evening All. Good work on the lacy undies, LST, sounds great. Definitely stay clear of frilly crotchless pants, they may well do it for some people but seriously, ewww. Hope the vests and knicks do the trick

It is weird spending time with other peoples kids, especially long periods of time. I have also been in the slightly guilty position of thinking 'oh my goodness, this is quite dull'. Even children that you love, like sibling's kids, can be hard going. But I suspect it doesnt have to be like that with your own, although every-day life and getting through the necessary tasks probably takes a lot of energy. And you do get to weave them into your life from the time they turn up, covered in goo and scrunched up. It would be good to have a fully functioning crystal ball, though - hmmm, will I go stir crazy, or not?

I dont really know how badly alcohol affects the process of TTC. Going from 'some' to 'none' might affect stress levels though! I have to confess that I dont drink hardly at all, havent done for years since I had one heavy night too many and had a three, yes, three day hangover . Now I have maybe two glasses of wine a month, max. No-one would notice if I got pregnant! But I think easing off a bit, especially on big sessions, could perhaps help a bit, but I dont think anyone apart from the rampant TTC-ers advocates complete abstinance, do they?

So. My colour today. well, less green than the other day, am a bit embarrassed by my deep shade o'green . My question is, if Im on the pill (which I am!), why do I seem to be experiencing mid-month surges in baby-wanting? Between Day 8 and day 18 of my fake cycle? It then tails off to my pill-break week. Cant figure it out. But anyway, the nursery costs, while clearly unpleasant, bring the price into the possible ball park (no pun intended). It would however mean no clothes/holidays/emergency money, which would be a shame, and something I might resent.

All in all Im green with a slight hint of amber. Im so pleased your DH is up for it a bit more, LST, maybe blowing off steam in London will bring him back ready to go!? As for my DH, things are improving on the communication front, and he does seem to be bringing it up himself a bit more now. Its just such a slow process for both of us.

Still love these!

Hello all,

I don't think finding other peoples' children slightly boring/tiring/hard work can be unusual at all - as I can utterly empathise with all your posts. I suspect it's completely different when you have one of your own. It's weird, but I just can't get my head round that sort of bond.

Not sure about mid-month baby-wanting HP I'm sure I've read similar things in other threads though. It would make sense if there was some sort of physiological effect around ovulation, though how/whether this changes if the pill is stopping ovulation I don't know.

I also have no idea about how much alcohol is OK whilst TTC - and the continually changing advice doesn't help. I'm not clear how much of it is drink hindering conception, and how much is not exposing the fetus to too much booze. Fortunately for me, I don't drink a lot anyway, so cutting down and/or not drinking when out with people who don't need to know I am (if I was, really) TTC isn't going to be too much of an issue. I'm just dreading the moment someone claims chocolate harms fetuses.

BTW, probably won't have time to post in the next few days, so wanted to wish LST and confused all the best for later this week - keep us updated!

Sorry, even more garbled than usual - and it's only Monday....

Hi ladies, hope you don't mind me lurking on your thread when I feel more amber than green (despite officially TTC I am no more sure than the rest of you!)

Regarding alcohol, the most definitive review I've been able to find is here. It's a bit long (!) but the overall conclusion is:

"In summary, for most outcomes, there was no consistent evidence of adverse effects from low-to-moderate prenatal alcohol consumption [which they take to be one drink per day]. Nevertheless, the evidence is probably not strong enough to rule out any risk. There was some evidence of adverse effects on neurodevelopment of binge drinking during pregnancy".

All the evidence is in women who are actually pregnant, rather than TCC. I don't think there is any evidence that alcohol consumption in women prevents pregnancy from occurring, the concern around drinking whilst TTC seems to be that you are pregnant for at least 2 weeks before you know about it, and the impact that could have on the developing bundle of cells.

Personally, I don't seem able to resist a glass of wine almost every night, and sometimes two or three on Fri/Sat. I would intend to stop if I actually found out I was pregnant, but who knows when/if that will be? In the meantime, I think there are worse things you can do, and you can't put the things you enjoy on hold indefinitely.

Thanks for that, RLR very helpful! I too intend to stop if I did get pregnant, and would also hopefully go off it anyway, but in the meantime there are indeed worse things you can do (that'll be laying off the crack and smack then )

I won't type lots as I am meant to be doing some work and I have discovered that countless hours can be lost on Mumsnet once you succumb (if it wasn't for blooyd Mumsnet this damn book would be half written by now!)

Must be quick, am on a break at work. Did you all see this today in the news.....

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8315724.stm

Dont know how to post it as a link, sorry!

Ah, maybe try this

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8315724.stm

Morning all,

Just catching up after a short spell away from MumsNet. Re other people's kids being a bit uninteresting, I have to agree. I am just hoping that somehow mine (if we ever have any) will be a little more engaging - at least to me anyway!

Re booze, I'm cutting down rather than eliminating completely. Probably best to avoid too much if there's a possibility of pregnancy, but you can go for it when you are definately not!

I'm trying to obsess a little less about all things procreational. According to fertility friend, I ovulated quite early this month and I completely missed it. Consequently DH and I missed peak fertility window. So no chance of a BFP this month. I think it was less stressful when I didn't know and we shagged when we felt like it rather than feeling obligated.

Am swithering between amberish and constant underlying green. Took my friend shopping to buy maternity clothes at the weekend, which was a mixed experience. I really want to be happy and excited for her, and I am really, but still pretty damn envious. . I can regard toddlers in shopping centres with disinterested detachment, but when my chum showed me her bean scan and signs of a developing bump part of my is screaming "I want that too!"

Anyway. Hope everything goes well at the hospital tomorow Confused. Keep the rage and irritation for these boards, not during your appointment.

Hey HP, yes I did see that this morning, almost totally contradicts yesterday's theory!! Maybe I should cut out the week day wine after all

Thanks for that HP. Might have to try and share that info with DH, I'm struggling to get him down to reccommended levels (i.e 1 units a week) as it is. He'll go nuts if he has to abstain altogether!

oops 21 units a week - must preview before posting!

Just read the feature on drinking. Bugger. That is quite a difference. (Even though this doesn't seem to affect anyone I know who carried on as normal till the day of the BFP - where do you draw the line...?! Hmm, maybe I am looking for excuses to carry on as 'normal' too.

Am touched YTD you remembered I have an appt tomorrow. I'll no doubt keep you all posted!

Better go as this book progress seems to be going backwards rather than forwards at the moment and I really need to get my finger out.

Just call me Little Miss Willpower

I was thinking about that as well, and maybe because the effect of the alcohol is to lower the chance of a successful conception, if you have other stuff working against you (like age, slightly lower quality male spermies etc), the added effect of the alcohol may move you from 'getting away with it' to 'not getting away with it'. However, that is pure speculation on my part. Its good to have some actual data in the press about this though, and I thought the article was clear in highlighting that men also had to step up and cut back, as it seems to be that its usually seen as the womans role to make the sacrifices.

LST - I hope your appointment went well and you found out what you need to know. If you want to, let us know how it went, ears to bend are here!

Confused - good luck for tomorrow, it will be fine and hopefully will arm you for whats ahead. Stage 1 is nearly over!! Hope the writing is going well.

YTD - Im not 100% sure how accurate all that stuff is, so you never know, I bet loads of people conceive thinking they were outside of their ideal sexy zone.

(For those who remember my conference-missed pill, I checked and apparently on my pill you have to miss two before there is any danger, one isnt enough. So, phew, but also, sigh)

I am now wondering if I need to talk DH into cutting down the booze! He's only just finished working (he works from home) and is just sitting down with a beer so it would make me very popular indeed - ha!

LST - I second that there are ears here to bend! And I don't mean that in a nosey way either! Do, if you want to obviously, let us know how it goes.

And I shall be keeping you all posted on tomorrow's developments too... Hopefully it will be a posting rather than a rant!

Hi all,

Also touched you remembered my appt. It was pretty procedural but went well in the sense that it's all go. We need to have more tests - I've got to have some of the blood tests I had before, to check I'm ovulating etc., because it's now many many months since started investigating... - and we both need to have stuff like HIV and hepatitis (hopefully purely procedural!). But once that's done, we go onto a waiting list, and they guarantee to start treatment within 18 weeks. I thought that sounded super quick, but then realized that's actually more than 4 months away . Still, I guess quicker than that would have been a bit optimistic.

And have been watching scary videos and reading scary stuff online about IVF today, so somehow not too upset that it's not all starting next week. Am going to try my hardest to get preggers before March or whenever it might all kick off, as it would be SO much more pleasant that way... But things in motion, anyway, and the doctor was nice, if kind of brisk, today.

Anyway, that was probably more rather uninteresting detail than you needed, but never mind! All the very best with tomorrow, confused - much more of an ordeal, potentially (though obviously hopefully not at all) than mine.

I asked the doc about DH's drinking today (and mine!), and she said 'as long as his sperm's ok I wouldn't worry too much' - and she thought his last sperm tests were ok - so that was a bit surprising. But she also said 'things are changing all the time and I'm not an IVF expert as such' (now she tells me!) as she's just a GP with special expertise in fertility and gynae, so the stuff in the papers is probably more up-to-date than she knows about. But it was slightly reassuring. He's said he'll cut down after Christmas in the lead up to treatment, which is good going for him even to say that. And obviously I need to lead by example! I think HP probably has a point re. if everything else is a bit borderline... So will try, womanfully, to keep sober - with many mild lapses, no doubt!

Sorry to hear about the two-pill thing, HP (not least as it would be so exciting to have a BFP on here!) but perhaps as you say no bad thing at present.

And glad you're having stress-free action, YTD! It's good to touch base with sex-for-its-own-sake occasionally (or more than occasionally). Can relate to what you're saying re. pregnancy envy, although lots of aspects of pregnancy don't look much fun so that usually balances it for me... (Am I really comitted to this lark??!)

Anyway, thinking of you tomorrow confused and again let us know how it goes. Good night all (You've got me hooked on these halloweenies, HP!)