Immune/NK cells pred thread #32

[VenusStarr]

Hi everyone. The last thread is filling up. Have tried to tag everyone who posted on the last few pages, but feel free to join / tag anyone I missed.

@Gizmo1983
@fleur89
@Sunflower360
@MotherOfShihTzus
@lozzmax
@HopefulH
@kea1990
@Sprinkleofbabydust
@Newbeginnings22023
@star2022
@RumandSpinach
@Ems123456789
@MamaW05

Love to all ❤️

@lozzmax and @VenusStarr i can post some pics I’ve just been using the easy at home ones and did a clear blue yesterday CRP said they were faint positives and hopefully will progress but I’m not seeing it.

When's af due? @Gizmo1983 they are very faint and the clearbue is quite thin. It's a real headfuck. X

@lozzmax i only tested yesterday so only have yesterday and today to go by as anything before that could be the trigger which makes it even more confusing. Wish I hadn’t booked the flights for Monday now as thinking probably need a few more days just to see what will happen. Hubby said he’s not fussed losing the flight money so at least I’m not too stress about that bit xxx

@VenusStarr period is due Tuesday. I don’t have a good feeling pretty certain it is a chemical and if it is I don’t want to fly Heathrow to get a taxi to get lipids to get a taxi back wait six hours then fly home I just can’t be bothered xxx

I absolutely hear you on that. What time were you due to fly on Monday? Hopefully tomorrow the line will be clearer.
Sometimes testing later in the day can be clearer results. Do you have any more tests? X

Have to be at the airport 6am🤦‍♀️. Yeah hubby went out to get some more but can only get the clear blue but at least it will be a comparison. I can try later in the day it won’t hurt xxx so pleased the ivf is already booked think that’s keeping me going xxx

Keeping everything crossed for you ❤️ @Gizmo1983 keep us posted. Xx

@Gizmo1983 I wouldn't count yourself out yet - it often takes at least two days for the tests to darken. I don't know whether this is helpful because I did actually end up having a chemical but I'll try and find a pic of two clear blue tests that were done at 7am and then 6pm on the same day



Can't seem to post a photo for some reason. But basically it went from very faint to a lot darker in a day

Thanks for the tag @VenusStarr I'm really sorry to hear how much you've been struggling.. I have no words to say that will make you feel better as I know how rough this journey is and its an ongoing battle. I'm glad you reached out to get some help from your doctor, I do hope the meds are helping you ♥️

I've been MIA as I had some time out to do another egg retrieval last month (3rd one) after a year off IVF and this time we did ICSI for the first time with Zymot as dh had raised oxidative stress diagnosed this year so we were hopeful this was the answer. We did an intense protocol full of max dose stims, clexane, prednisolone 20mg, intralipids, melatonin, lubion, cyclogest literally everything. We managed to get 2 blasts so we did a double transfer (our 5th transfer), and we just found out this failed too. I'm really at a loss and don't know what to do anymore, none in the freezer, so I'll have to do a 4th egg retrieval...

After having 6 rounds of superovulation last year too with dr shehata on an immune protocol, and now this ivf round on an immune protocol, I'm beginning to feel quite sceptical about the whole nk cell stuff and whether that's our issue.

Does anyone have any recommendations for further testing at all? I haven't done ERA or looked into microbiome etc, nor have we done a karyotype test but I just feel like money is going down the pan at this point.. There are too many tests I see online receptivaDx, fertylisis, etc how do you know which ones to do?

Fingers crossed for you @Gizmo1983 x

Hi @star2022 its really nice to hear from you. I have been thinking of you and wondered how things were going for you. I am so sorry to hear about your transfer ❤️ there are no words for how awful it is. I'm more sceptical about nk things now but I have no other answers for what could be going on. Are you sticking with your new ivf clinic?
I hope you're doing ok following this cycle.

I know what you mean about further testing. I'm done with testing now. Dr Edge said I needed to redo the cytokines test but I just can't do it. Plus there was no indication in my original test that I was borderline or anything
I did do the ERA, emma and Alice test. All was OK but was reassuring. I think fertilysis is cheaper for microbiome.
Have you had your review with your ivf clinic?

Thanks for your nice message. I'm still feeling pretty numb, going to increase the meds next week but I'm going to go back to work, I think I can do that now. Dh said he thinks my mood is a bit better but I am still struggling with intrusive thoughts. Still not ready to think about ivf. Which is frustrating me. X

I hope you're doing ok @Gizmo1983 x

@Gizmo1983 Sorry to hear about what your experiencing, hope you get some clarity soon and as you say the IVF is a positive to move forward with

@star2022 Hi, I'm new to this group. I have thyroid antibodies and have had 2 FETs of which both were BFNs, I have been on Prednisolone 10mg for both and aspirin. I'm moving on to my 3rd FET and hoping to do a double transfer (trying probiotics this time too, may as well, low risk), if I do that it'll be 5 embryos created in a 6 month window that have been given a shot as all of the embryos were created within ECs over 3/4 months, plus I had a natural chemical pregnancy the cycle before starting the ECs...ironically that was the only positive I've had so far before any meds or tests, only a change in diet/supplements. So I too am a bit sceptical about immunology effects on TTC/IVF and treating it. If you don't mind me asking how old are you? Have you considered PGTA?

Hi @VenusStarr Thank you ♥️ I know its just shit isn't it, fail after fail i'm sick of it as I'm sure you are.

I haven't had my follow up yet, but i'm hopeful the consultant will be able to recommend next steps rather than rush into another egg retrieval. We fortunately paid for a multicycle package with Care, so we do have one more egg retrieval included in the cost and any frozen transfers are included too. I just didn't manage to get any to freeze which sucks but would be interesting to see if she thinks doing the same protocol will help. It was definitely our best round in terms of how many follicles we got - 11 follicles, 9 mature eggs (most we've had), 6 fertilised with icsi, but then 2 made it to blast and the quality of them were better than what we had with Create so I do think the testosterone and melatonin helped me this time. We were so confident this one would be it which is why we transferred both hoping at least one would stick 😔

Hoping to get a consultation next week, and I'm inclined to do the ERA/EMMA/ALICE if the dr thinks so too. One thing I did notice was that at 4dp5dt I went and got some bloods done via my GP just to reassure me of my levels of hormones etc and in those blood tests they checked my inflammatory markers for some reason probably in error (CRP & ESR) and both of these came back really high. I was already on steroids by this point which should be dampening any inflammation so it makes me wonder whether there is some sort of inflammation going on/infection. Definitely something to raise with the consultant. Other than that, I'm wracking my brains trying to find answers all the time.

I'm so sorry. The meds can make you feel numb, and I guess thats how they work to stop you from 'feeling' so much. Hopefully the increase helps the intrusive thoughts, I know it sucks not feeling ready to go again but I think you are doing the right thing to focus on your mental health right now. Do you think taking time off work will help? GP's are really good and will give you a sick note unless you feel better keeping busy. I've had to completely quit my job with all this going on. I used to be so ambitious and career driven, this process has destroyed everything x

@Sunflower360 Hi and welcome..Sorry to hear of your failed transfers too. The only one positive pregnancy I had was also a chemical. I just don't understand why they're not implanting. I'm 35 and we've never done PGT - I guess we've never been told to due to my age (I was 33 when I did IVF previously and my 4 failed transfers) but surely out of 6 embryos, at least one would have been normal?! Which is why I feel like there's more to it.

The only things I've had diagnosed are a weakly positive ANA, high nk activity, and dh borderline dna frag, my amh is low for my age (7pmol)

I can't help but wonder why I'm never getting any implantation..

@star2022 well a chemical is a implantation, its a very early miscarriage, so that shows you can implant but of course it led to miscarrying earlier. They do tend to say chemicals are more attributed to abnormal embryos. You do have age on your side...have you had an investigatory Hysteroscopy? What supplements are you taking? I haven't had the EMMA microbiome test done but am taking probiotics now anyway as I understand that bacteria is good to have in your system in abundance. Also do you have medicated or natural FETs? Mine have all been natural so far

@Sunflower360 Yeah sorry I mean implantation in general, even from all the years I've tried naturally it just never seems to happen. That one chemical was from a fresh transfer in 2022 using an ungraded blast at that so I was surprised out of all the embryos I've made which have been fairly average quality AB's, BB, BC it was an 'ungraded' day 6 blast that actually implanted!

I've had two hysteroscopy's, one to remove a polyp last year and thought this was the answer. And then 6 months later, had another 2 polyps pop up so I had these removed the month before this ivf cycle I just had so my uterus was looking healthy and perfect for this round.

Supplements I'm on 600mg ubiquinol, vit D 2000, NMN & Reservatrol, omega 3, usual prenatal, and have been on these for over a year now. Dh was on Impryl, but recently started Proxeed sachets.

Which probiotics are you taking, do you think I should just include one anyway? I've only had 2 FETS in the past, one was medicated, one was natural and both were a fail.

We found out medicated FETs aren't ideal for me as my body naturally thickens my lining and I believe the high estrogen on my medicated rounds is what caused my polyps to grow.

Do you have any more in the freezer? What will your next steps be?

@star2022 that is the exact same reason I've not done medicated, I got a polyp through doing back to back ECs...they were natural modified but my response was better than they expected so my estrogen levels were higher than my body was used to and inevitably led to the polyp-my fault really as I insisted on doing back to back despite the Drs advising a break. In any case the Hysteroscopy sorted that and adhesions too which I didnt know I had so was worth doing it in the end. If I do another EC (which is likely if this 3rd FET fails) then I'll ensure to have a 1 month break between treatment to avoid polyps.

I'm taking Optibac for Women, link below. I asked the Dr and he was happy for me to take them in readiness for this 3rd FET which is this cycle. I'm taking 2 a day

www.boots.com/Optibac-For-Women-30-capsules-10274771?cm_mmc=bmm-buk-google-ppc--PLAs_HeroCompare---_-PMax:+UK_Smart_Shopping_Healthcare_Other&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwxLKxBhA7EiwAXO0R0GqzGV6qr9uHFGtkmiHMKBhLbyjO5A4UbwdRy5tLtkKpkGcLZuirCxoCAg0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I have a day 3 embryo (which will be thawed this cycle to see if it turns into a blastocyst) and 5 x blastocysts left of varying quality from BB to CC-my A's were used in my first 2 FETs and not a single positive so I'm sceptical about grading now too! I ought to add I am also 38 so inevitably if I'm lucky I would have 1 maybe 2 out of that lot that was genetically normal...then the rest is up to my body, for all I know it could have been the last 2 that were put in that were normal and perhaps my body just said no thanks! It is quite unknown as we didn't PGTA and I'm reluctant to do it now their already frozen, I am considering it for any future ECs if only to have a thing checked off outside the body before transfer as transferring embryos that you don't know if they have a fighting chance is beginning to get exhausting now mentally, hence looking at doing a double transfer this time.

@Sunflower360 Oh wow you're the same as me then in regards to the estrogen! I definitely had my polyps grow because of that. I was on an estrogen priming protocol for my 2nd egg retrieval which led to the polyp initially, then i had the natural FET after that and we realised we didn't need any estrogen as my lining was doing its job. I also noticed during this EC my lining again was almost 12mm on stims - the nurses always say its textbook and fine, but I can't help but feel concerned when it gets too thick like that. I also have weird periods since TTC, only really get 2 days of proper bleeding but those two days are super painful and then just spotting..

Thank you for the link! I've literally just bought some.

I'm also reluctant to do PGT, but only because I've seen that sometimes perfectly fine embryos can be discarded which worried me. It's also such a huge expense, and I'm just tired of spending so much money on all this and all the investigations. I feel like there needs to be more on the NHS for investigating into RIF as all these investigations are ridiculously expensive. I'm even worried about the polyps again as I've already had to privately pay twice for the surgery and I dread if any more pop up after all the stims I've had recently. Have you had any diagnosis? or is it unexplained?

@star2022 I too am sceptical about PGTA tbh...if we only get a couple of embryos in future ECs I'd likely just transfer but it really depends on how many, if any more, we get. My original reason for IVF was low AMH for my age, it was 6, then 4 last summer and is likely lower now but when I'm doing my FET scans there appear to be around 4 follicles, albeit small ones, so for me that's enough to still try ECs but Id want to do that sooner rather than later hence revisiting ECs if this FET does not work, try to embryo bank more and then revisit FETs in the Autumn.

OH sample was fine, but we had ICSI anyway as my first ever EC with the NHS we got zero fertilisation of 2 eggs-I was on max stims and since have only done a dose of 150-225 Gonal-F which massively improved our results through EC, plus the ICSI. Out 14 eggs over the 3 ECs we got 8 embryos, so massive improvement from the NHS cycle.

I did have further tests in readiness for transfers and that is where I discovered I had thryoid antibodies of around 275 although my TSH level is under 2. Hence being on 10mg Prednisolone, been on it for 2 months straight now as I've done back to back natural FETs, I'm hoping its doing something as my hayfever is non existent and my sinuses are usually a nightmare by now. If this 3rd FET does not work I'll have to have a break from the Prednisolone as they don't like you on them for too long, and then go back on them when I transfer.

So I'm not sure if the antibodies could be blocking implantation but then I had the chemical where I had pregnancy symptoms and hcg before I even knew about the antibodies so I don't know.

But in short it is mainly because of my AMH and age going down this route! The rest has all come up along the way!

@star2022 I always find it good to go in with a list of questions for the review. I'm sorry you didn't get anything to freeze, but I'm glad you have another round to try. That's interesting about your inflammatory markers. It's all so complicated isn't it? I hope your review does help you get a plan to move forward.

This morning I did have a thought that maybe I can do the final round, first time in absolutely ages. I'm not making any decisions yet though. It's cd1 today, one day early but its not too bad, so that's good.

@Gizmo1983 how are you? I've been thinking of you ❤️

@VenusStarr hi sweet defo a chemical woke up this morning to bleeding and tests are negative 😢. It must only have stuck for 3 days but my boobs are still so sore and my emotions are crazy and my sense of smell is horrendous. I’m hoping it will just pass as a heavy period. I’m gutted but at least it went super early instead of hanging on a few weeks that’s the only good thing I can come up with at the minute xxx

❤️❤️ sending you a big hug @Gizmo1983 I'm really sorry this happened. It's fucking horrible and cruel. Look after yourself and take things easy xxx

@VenusStarr it really is I’m almost starting to panic now and think is my body not capable and of carrying a child. It’s so rubbish.xxx

@Gizmo1983 sending lots of love. Glad you have your ivf ahead of you ❤️

@Gizmo1983 sorry to read that, if possible try and keep focussed on the IVF. I had a chemical the cycle before starting my recent ECs last year for embryo banking and I found the ECs a welcomed distraction and focus to what was a horrible experience with the chemical.