30s TTC: For BESHes who have been trying to conceive since the Higgs Boson was last seen

[ChoChoSan]

Come and learn the Tao of BESH, a path to wisdom and emancipation that can be gained only by careful practice and meditation on the central tenets leading the way from the barren to the Updiffed. The Tao consists of:

4 Noble Truths: 1) The life of an emancipated women inevitably leads to barrenness and babyfails. 2) Barrenness is caused by women?s FAILURE to procreate before they reach their thirties as a result of selfishness and evilness, and general hag-ishness.3) Barrenness ends when BESHness ends. This is achieved by eliminating The DROID, thereby reaching a liberated state of UPDIFFMENT. 4) Reaching this liberated state is achieved by following the path laid out in the Tao of BESH.

5 Pillars of BESHdom; YOU MUST: 1) Undertake Regular Visits to FC ? Always observing the ritual traditions of Getting Your Rat Out and Partaking of the Dildocam 2) Undergo the Purification Rite to evict the cobwebs, rusty bicycles and old prams from your ancient uterus 3) Realise that Camping will most assuredly lead to a swift and lasting visit from R2D2 4) Observe the solemn monthly rituals of ?the prodding of the buzwams? and ?insertion of cigar? 5) Recognise the terrible power of such artefacts as the CBFM, and despair!

Eightfold Path of Diffment;

1. Intercourse must always be a union of Winky and foofoo (No Hankyhole)

1. Defeat the negative karma of ?spitting a lot up the fanny? by pushing egg white up there after it

1. Appease the gods of fertility by rubbing your ovaries whiddershins

1. Pray to Jebus to put baybee in your tumtum

1. Have your uterus sprayed with Teflon, and apply gaffer tape to the lady garden to stop BOC falling out and making angelbaybees

1. Recognise that likelihood of diffment is in direct proportion to the number of poas you use, and the earliness at which you use them.

1. Confirmation of a WIN can only take place after you have undertaken your First BESHly Baptism, and assembled in a place of drinking with other followers of the Tao.

1. The state of diffment is confirmed when the second red line has been drawn on the poas, and the poas set on fire to release a pall of white smoke.

The BESHly acolytes are now called upon to provide suggestions for the Ten Commandments of BESH...JOIN US!!

thank you cass

Am stupid, I should be grateful really, I suppose some people would be thankful that they arn't titting about with unnecessary procedures and are cutting to the chase. AIBU maybe?

I just don't get why, if things are ok with me and TBs only a little bit on the low side why arn't they exploring all options? Have I picked a lemon of an FC?

I just hope LL and hopon come back with better news to cheer me up.

God, what an arsehole, Salad Docs so often forget that just because they've worked out what they think is best, doesn't mean that the patients are just automatons that will comply unquestioningly with their decisions OR that hearing something as hardcore as 'Go straight to IVF, do not pass GO, do not collect £200' might be really difficult to deal with and process OR that you might deserve and expect some blooy level of explanation and having your fear, worries and questions listened to. GRRRRRRR. How can these people not realise that we need answers? That without knowing the 'reasons why', we will torment ourselves for ever. Hell, if IVF works first time and you win wonderful OMG_TWINZ!1!!!111!, you would still need to know why they wanted to rush you straight into IVF.

I've forgotten how old you are - Needles told me that FCs often rush cronier BESHes straight into IVF as the older you get, the less likely everything is to work (MAGIC ), so they like to just crack on with the most powerful treatment.

I understand TB feeling that IVF is 'unnatural', BUT (and you might dislike me for being so blunt) if it's his results that mean you require IVF to conceive, it's unfair of him to complain. It might be a reaction to feeling guilty or like he's let you down or similar. And you must ask him, which feels most unnatural: having a child via IVF or never having them. Surely it's the latter?

Wish I could climb down the interwebs and give you a big hug. Will this do?:

PS Cinco, my app. next week is Thurs. avo. Foiled again!

Salad oh you poor love. Is it just one JIAP test they've done so far? Have they done any bloodtests for you yet at all? I agree if it's male factor issues that they probably aren't so concerned with your tubes but they ought to be looking at your FSH/LH levels to check how you'll respond to stimming drucks.

What were TB's figures like? Would he be open to trying lots of supplements (not hokum - good scientific basis that they help).

Sorry for all the questions I want to be able to give you options and feel like there are other things you can try first.

I think Scorps is right about doctors not realising the enormity of their pronouncements, or the hours that we've spent worrying ourselves sick before our allotted 2 minute slot in front of them.

With regards what you do next - for now, I think do nothing. Take a few days, both of you, and come to terms with this latest development. Let it all sink in, settle a bit. Then talk, see how you both feel. TB might begin to feel differently now he's faced with a "this or nothing" option. Or he might not, but I think you will both need a bit of time to get over the shock before you can make any rational decisions.

So, in short - stay here and drink more vodka :)

Salad :( Anywhere you can go for a second opinion? Think Scorps may well be right and Mr Salad may just be freaking out a bit, which is fair enough. Hope you are both okay.

Ohhh Salads. Hits you right between the eyes doesn't it. You'd think that with the job they have they could be a bit more caring about how they go about these things. You may tell me to shut up as not helping but a similar thing happened to us. Mr T's first 2 lot of results were so bad we were told our only chance would be ICSI and so no point doing further checks on me - and I won't bore again with all details but things have improved enough for us to be doing IUI.

Maybe it's for the best though. IUI doesn't have good success rates even when sperm levels good and it may just be delaying the inevitable? I know he is reluctant for IVF but it isn't any more 'unnatural' than taking drugs to keep you alive, or having metal in your hip to enable you to walk, or....even just flying on a plane FFS. Don't get me wrong it's tough but the end result is well worth it. (So I'm hoping)

Funny scorps the monopoly analogy was exactly what was going round in my head on the way home. Unfortunately Tb isn't arsed about having kids so the answer your your question would be 'having IVF' :( And I am 39 in feb so yes thats probably why they arn't fucking about. I am probably being a bit hard on the consultant, I suppose thats what most people would want to hear.

BB his count was 18 mil, 7% morph and 45% motility overall so a little low across the board. However he had been on the biggest (week long!) bender for a very long time only the week before as we had been on holiday and to a festival so that may well have affected things (esp motility) and we have been taking supplements, cut down on boozing etc. already have a pretty healthy diet and he's been exercising more too. So I really hope this helps.

Thanks you guys, sorry for being such a moaning mini. cass good advise. I am determined not to be distracted from trying naturally in the mean time, should be oving today so gonna extort sympathy shag out of him this evening :D

cinco you are so right - me in car on way home: 'oh i see, so technology is ok when it comes to giving you an xbox but not when it comes to giving me a baby?" he said it was different but it bloody well isn't. (i may have been a bit of a bitch with that one)

shoes the IVF will actually be done at a different hospital so i suppose i will get the opportunity to ask there.

I'm no Dr love but those results seem only slightly under the WHO ranges for normal levels so think it may be because of your age that they're suggesting you press ahead with IVF - due to improved success rates based on arbritary numbers . But also means you could very well fall pregnant naturally so perhaps could ask for at least the HSG test for you - is there a fertility nurse you can call to ask?

Cass offers wise words about processing this and being kind to yourselves and Cinco makes a good point about 'unnaturalness', which would be a good way of how to discuss the issue with TB.

He is entitled to not be bothered about having kids, but it's pretty unfair that he has let his broody partner of 39 go to a Fertility Clinic, after both having lots of tests, etc., if he's not prepared to see it through to the end. I realise men don't think things through the way we do, and am not trying to attack TB, just worrying about you

Your age is probably a major factor why they are rushing you into IVF. Needles Lady told me that they probably would only do 1 or 2 IUIs with me and then insist we went for IVF. Of course, that was before I was refused a referral, so is all academic

Yeah I know thats why I was a bit gobsmacked. Unless I have got them wrong (this is from memory as can't find the print out) But I think its is prob due to my decrepitude. I will ask about HSG again and if they still won't do it will consider going private. I also want to know if we have IVF and it doesn't work does that mean we can't have IUI afterwards.

OK have to start a new list of questions.

A moaning mini is the last thing you are Salad! So sorry it was such a disappointing and upsetting meeting. Is Mr Salad saying that he definitely won't continue down the IVF route or just that he feels uncertain about it? It's a scary step and the I imagine the process must seem very invasive and impersonal.

just found this article

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/features/article3025016.ece

its about a specific condition but this paragraph interested me.

"The main reason the condition often goes undiagnosed is because it is hard to detect using straightforward diagnostic procedures, explains Lower. ?Instead of using the 2-D ultrasound scans, the best way to diagnose Asherman?s is by visualising the interior of the uterus, using a diagnostic hysteroscopy, where a tiny scope is inserted through the cervix, or a hysterosalpingogram (HSG),? as was used in Sarah?s case. HSGs cost around £300 to perform, so why aren?t they used more widely? ?The reality is that too many women with fertility problems are thrown straight into IVF without being fully checked out.?

I was wondering about the private option Rocket , funny that - Is it possible to get blood tests / dildocam / HSG done privately? Then to take results back to clinic if they indicate anything needs doing?

Don't get me wrong: you shouldn't have to. But maybe it would help.

I'm so sorry this is such an awful, illogical, unfair and unpredictable journey. That goes to all of you.

thanks twinks

Oooh, Salad, that's interesting to me because earlier this year - over THIRTY years since it happened - my Aunt was told that the reason she was never able to have children was because a D&C she had after a mc was done too harshly and fucked her womb up. They knew this at the time the notes show that they thought it would be best not to 'upset' her! Months after discovery, she is still fuming and rightly so - they made a mistake, they didn't own up to it, she was left in the dark as to the cause of her problem, her husband left her because she couldn't have kids (although she's well rid, he was a cunt) and she's spent over 3 decades hating herself for not being a 'real' woman. And of course, telling her after so long means that she can no longer sue them or anything, the bastards! I might tell her that the correct name is Asherman's, as she is the sort of person who needs facts and titles, etc.

Sorry, was self-indulgent (Aunt-indulgent). Do you think this might be something you could have... or are you tormenting yourself with Google? We've all been there

natural CONCEPTION i mean.

Those sperm results don't look catastrophic to me Salad, I would think IUI was a logical step - it puts the good sperm where they need to be, gives them increased eggs as targets, ensures perfect timing and gets rid of all the rubbish sperm so they are taken out of the equation.

A HSG or lap/dye is part of a requirement before you have IUI or IVF down here I'm sure, even if there are male factors involved. If you have the funds it may be worth pursuing things privately, but I would push for HSG and repeat JIAP test on the NHS.

Definitely allow things to settle down a bit before undertaking next steps, as your bloke is probably feeling a bit devestated by this chunk of news (as well as you of course).

Zinc, selenium, vits C & E, glutathione and L carnitine are all good supplements. It takes 3 months from production to ejaculation so get him on those if he isn't already on them.

Oh and a big squeeze from me.

OMG your poor Aunt!! Can she really not sue because of the time delay? I would have thought she would have a good case for mental torture apart from the D&C screw up that, is so awful. poor poor auntiescorps

But no, not something i could have as have never had a D&C.

Thanks BB the thing is this is not news to us as I got his results posted to us from the GPs a few months ago. But yes, I spose me geting weepy over it all has prob freaked him out a bit. I am just really surprised with skipping the IUI. I really wonder if this is more cost cutting by the NHS,I have no idea how much IUI costs versus IVF but wonder if they think "give the barren old cow a few rounds of IVF to shut her up then send her on her way" I know this is the height of paranoia but it does seem a bit weird.

Salad they would be moving very swiftly to have any treatment ready for your next cycle. We had to fill in a load of forms to ensure we were eligible for funding first and get loads of tests redone (at least two JIAP done too). They would also need to have a session telling you the implications of doing treatment (multiples, OHSS etc), how to do your injections and prepare your drugs, and get your prescription signed off and filled before your next cycle began.

Ah sorry I forgot you already had his test results a while ago. IUI costs about £400-£700 I think privately, whereas IVF £4000+? Lots of NHS places offer egg sharing IVF where you get a reduced rate (or just pay for the drugs yourself) if you donate a percentage of your eggs. I'm not an expert on IVF though as haven't undergone it yet.

Salad tis all shit, am sorry. I wonder whether there's something going on with you heading towards some mystical upper age limit in the PCT for IVF that means they think it'd be better to get you straight in for that rather than doing IUI or whatever which might not work and then leaving the possibility of you being too old to be approved for IVF (but I may have misremembered your age and be being completely irrelevant in which case apologies). You probably have a far better idea of what the guidelines are round your way, but it was just a thought that they might be trying to be helpful in a most unhelpful manner. Not that that helps you with TB's reluctance. Have more gin.

Hugs to Cinco too, and everything crossed for 3rd time lucky.

Now where's HB and those JIAP results?

I'm pretty sure paying for private tests doesn't exempt you from NHS treatment. And I think the others here who've done IVF or similar have had a few months wait.... but they will hopefully come on and advise better than me...

MrStew took zinc and B12 for his swimmers. And some friends of ours with dreadful JIAP results turned off the heated seats in their car and got diffed the next month, I've said that on here before. I thought it was bollocks (excuse the pun) but it worked! So there is lots he can do to help.

Have you had ANYTHING done? Any bloods or anything?

Salad you have so much to take on board just now that you have utter carte blanche to say whatever you please about whatever you like. The BESH have spoken . It is worth remembering that, if I recall correctly, at least one BESH (I won't say whom in case I get it wrong) graduated to PESHness with immense aplomb despite her partner having v. poor jizz results - so always, always, always worth shagging away. Hopes and loves and gropes to you from now till Christmas.

Score your poor aunt . There are no words for it. This rouses in me the very very sleepy and lazy feminist: I never hard a more callous example of a patriarchal medical system at work .

Well - just spoken to the OM, and the nurse said that his results were normal, but his count is a bit low. I would have expected that to mean that it's not normal, so I guess the upshot is - they're alive, and waggling their little tails, and they're not two-headed and similar, so hoopla for that, and thank the Good Lord and the way of the BESH and our glorious ChoLeader. He is just off out to collect a print out and if I may I will post the numbers here. I told him that since fellas produce their spermicals constantly then things like lifestyle changes and supplements etc. can make a marked difference to sperm count. Erm, I hope I am right about this ! He was great, and said we should do tons of research, and he would do whatever it takes. Alas he is a clean-living fellow so short of not doing shift work I can't think of what else he can do besides take a credit account out at Holland & Barratt!

ANYWAY. Am very relieved, very grateful, and appreciate how very very lucky I have been. I wish I could share my luck around and indeed will consult various Tomes Of Majick to see if it can be achieved somehow