We're All Going To IBESHA: Last minute budget holiday fun for 30s TTC. Pack your string bikini and your oversized shades and get on board.

[Saladbomb]

Last call for flight SWI101 to Shagaluff. Sangria laced with folic acid on tape. Fake tanned Club reps will be dishing out the 2 for 1 cocktails, dressed in nothing but the most miniscule budgie smugglers. The pit will be manned by sleazy but virile Spanish waiters to provide your every need. Lets see the summer out in BESHley style, IE: starting a bar fight, drinking the place dry and falling over in a heap at the end of the night.

I think everyone has both naturally giving and selfish instincts within them. But their environment will mold them and encourage some types of behaviour and discourage and root out others. That said some people over come really harsh upbringings or awful things happening to them, so there is obviously an element of choice involved. Who knows how much any of it is nature/nurture.

Arial very, very sadly, I am starting to think that manners is a weakness too! Naught to do with class (like I said in the previous part of the cluster), but everyone seems to be out for themselves, and defensive, that I do wonder if raising a child to be polite is just setting them up to be weak! I don't want it to be like that, but I do wonder. Of course I would raise my non-existent child to be polite, but that's because I do not know any other way. I do wonder if I should though.

Politeness can be a strength too. Mountie Keeping calm and being able to get your point across without being rude or abusive in any situation is an amazing skill! I don't care if the rest of the world has gone to shit, my none existent child will still say please and thank you and be considerate of other people, if i have anything to do with it.

Manners maketh the man. It is possible to be polite and assertive and people will respect him/her for it.

In my line of work, I meet people from many walks of life and I've found the old cliche to be true - that often it's the social climbers who are the rudest, and it's the people who are at the "top", who are confident and feel they have nothing to prove, who are the politest and friendliest. It's certainly not always like this of course.

I found it completely charming when a German in a camper van stopped me the other day with an "Excuse me madam..." It made me beam and want to help him. Sadly it would have left him open to ridicule if he'd asked the wrong person.

I totally agree Aries - about people who have nothing left to prove being often the most polite. When I first started working in the world of law, I though they'd all be ghastly rude pushy Eton-and-Oxford types, looking down their noses at me. Imagine my horror when I discovered that they were indeed largely Eton-and-Oxford, and without exception the most unfailingly polite, considerate and well-mannered people I'd ever met. What also interests me is that they're also not in the least pushy or defensive: generally speaking if someone disagrees with them, they smile charmingly and self-effacingly and say "Gosh, what a terribly good point you make; I had never thought of that..." etc. etc.

I live in an area where there's a lot of working class people (some of whom some people might call 'chavs' ) and I've never really had a problem with them, either. For instance, I was waiting for the bus yesterday on the way home from the shops and realised I'd forgotten painkillers for my headache, and said so to the OM. The lass next to me (tracksuit, heavy eyeliner) immediately offered me some, bless her. And when I lived in a truly hideous part of London, someone tried to snatch my purse and its contents scattered on the floor - everyone around bent to pick up my stuff and ask if I were all right (I have to say I have been spared complete louts, but then I would say they're louts and generally unpleasant people - not unpleasant because they're lower class or chavvy or whatever).

The very rudest people do tend to the pushy Boden-clad yummy-mummies reeking with a sense of entitlement, who shove everyone out of the way with their Bugaboo prams, desperate to move from Crouch End to Muswell Hill (slightly smarter post-code doncher know )

When I say I live in a 'chavvy area', I don't mean that there are a lot of poor people or people with tracksuits and pramface ponytails (although they DO tend to wear that kind of garb), I really do mean that there is a horribly high proportion of people here who fit the 'chav' model of zero manners, foul behaviour, aggressiveness, anti-social activities, being incredibly narrow-minded, ignorant and bigoted, etc. I don't call them chavs lightly and I certainly don't think that all working class people are automatically chavs. And when I do apply the term to someone, I understand what's made them like that; dysfunctional parenting, without boundaries or consistent (or much) love and affection, no expectations from family, school or society that they should make anything of themselves, a culture of distrust of school and learning, bad examples modelled for them (ie particularly around drink, sex, attitudes towards others, such as black people, gays, etc.)... but you lot know all this.

The problem for me is knowing all that but not wanting to have to deal with the shitty behaviour we have to tolerate living here. We live on a main road with a bus stop outside (as I'm always saying) and the things you hear and see are shocking, disgusting and totally unacceptable. I have never managed to walk to the Tesco round the corner, which is less than 5 mins walk away, without either being verbally abused by someone or witnessing disgusting behaviour/activities. And don't even get me started on the behaviour on the bus!

And I'm not just talking about kids and young people, the people who are like this round here are of all ages. I was at the bus stop myself t'other day and there were 2 old ladies there also, who were very friendly to me but an Asian women came past with a pushchair and one of them yelled 'go back to where you came from, you pk bitch!' after she'd just passed us and the other shouted 'dirty black bitch!' to join in! I remonstrated with them and they called me a 'pk-lover' and started going on about how we didn't win WWII to let 'darkies' like her flood this country (erm, what?), blah blah blah (then the bus came).

The worst thing is, this was not a unique occasion. Things are like this all the time round here (or much worse) and it's not actually a deprived area or inner-city area, just a bog-standard working-class small suburb town.

Everyone around here and in the major city nearby are so different from all the working-class people in my own family and who I grew up around. I find many posh people insufferably smug, condescending and superior and just as rude in their own way too, but I don't have to deal with them very often.

I am an egalitarian. I don't - or I try not to - judge people on class, etc. But I do judge people on their manners or behaviour. It's pretty impossible not to. I am always polite (and polite-but-firm when I think someone crosses the line, like those racist old crones). I feel sorry for people whose upbringings have been so shit that they genuinely don't know what constitutes acceptable language and behaviour. But is that patronising?

I hope so Salad, keeping calm is one thing I do... Well, outwardly. Then I get my menkul out on you here .

Head sadly, 'tis not my experience, and I sort of come from that world (mix of countries though). But I think architects are a breed unto themselves.

Pet your stories make me very, very sad. And you repeat my sentiments about posh people.

I need to add though that I think Scorpette's town isn't the norm. I live in an utter backwater, a small deprived town which is completely reliant on tourism, which abounds with people who could be described as chavs, drug addicts in the railway station etc (Hey! you should all come for your holidays). But it's beautiful and on a sunny day there's nowhere I'd rather live, and when winter comes it retreats in on itself until spring. However I have never heard any abuse of the kind you have just described. There are families of blacks and Asians on holiday and east European migrant workers everywhere, but I think locals have the sense to realise on which side their bread is buttered. If anything it's the second home owners who swan down for the weekend after loading up their cars at Waitrose in Chelsea who cause far more resentment. It's a very open and friendly place generally.

Oh and I forgot to add, I have lived in a lot of places in Britain now. Except London!

By the way, thank you gals, being a bit foreen an' all sometimes I get confuzzled with the class system / perceptions here. Doesn't help that (100% English) CH seems to be as well! This is helping enlighten me a bit.

Ignore it Mountie. It's all a load of shite. I think it's very lovely when someone goes through life oblivious to it all - we should live in a meritocracy.

Oh, I don't think where I live is the norm, not by a long shot. I was merely describing what it's like round here. The city I live near and surrounding areas are well-known for having big issues with the stereotypical 'chav' stuff.

We live here because it's a really convenient location for us both. We just thought it was 'lively' and down to earth when we moved in but we're getting ground down by it all. We both agree that when I get pg we're going to move. People might judge us for this, but we want the same kind of upbringing for our children that we had; and that's a middle-class one in a 'naice' village or small suburb with good schools, etc. That doesn't mean only being around white people or solely middle-class folk, because that wasn't our experience either; simply being more around people who we can relate to. Also, ALL the pregnant women around here are v young. I can't handle the idea of going to local ante-natal classes and whatever and being the same age as some of the other women's mums!

Amen, Aries! We SHOULD live in a meritocracy. Sez me, whisking my future children off to live in Bodenville

Can you not move now Pette? Sounds like it's very stressful and not conducive to your well being.

Yep, I third that. I also need to get back to work. Sorry about half-baked comments so far. You lot are too interesting, and I was sort of trying to work at the same time. So quality of comments on here probably suffered .

I fourth that. I spent almost 5 years living somewhere I despised, and the day we moved I wept with relief, and my entire life changed for the better. I still kick myself that we didn't get out as soon as we realised what a terrible mistake we'd made, and wasted all those years on feeling miserable and resentful every time I visited friends in better parts of town . . . MOVE gal! Do it!

5thed, moving will be a lot easier before diffment and your situations sounds really stressful.

Being a fellow Robin Hood land resident who lives in the city I think you're talking about Scorps I know what you mean, however there are good places to live around here that still retain an element of keeping it real - I say that as opposed to some areas where the boden mummies have lunch/coffee/cake every day in the local deli and are mos def into competition parenting - 'cause I live in one! (The keeping it real rather than boden) I heart where I live and apart from my house being the size of a thimble with two shouty loud crappy neighbours and having no garden to speak of I don't think I'd choose anywhere else in this city.

So I 6th this motion that you should move and sharpish

Now I'll find out that we live in the same place

Cinco, I don't live in the city, so don't worry - I'm not one of your shouty neighbours We live about 20 mins away.

Are there no ways we can hint subtly at where we live that no-one else would get? BTW, we want to move to the area that has a nice Hall/park and sounds a bit sheepish Or possibly one that has a lot of BUZZ about it (too subtle? Too unsubtle?)

I want to live in a Boden area with posh delis! But I want nowt to do with competitive parenting (because my little darlings will obviously be superior to all other children, so there'll be no competition). I guess you can't have it all. Seeing as we were discussing last night about not having to feel apologetic for middle-class, I will make free to admit I want to live in a middle-class area. That would be 'keeping it real' for me and TYF! And I like Cath Kidston. Oh yeah, I went there.

Although it's not ideal, I don't get too stressed about where we live. It's v handy for public transport, TYF's work, shops and gym and I'm good at zoning out idiots bellowing on the streets and so on :)

Oooh, I can work out where you want to live (definitely one of them, I think I've got the other one and if so I lived there for a year). But I was at uni in said city so do know some of the areas.

The town we live in is a funny mix of middle class commuterville and working class areas that were built as overspill from the big cities. It makes life interesting. Mind you, we can't possibly be proper middle class, what is this Waitrose of which you speak?! It's not really a land of nannies and so on either; if you're rich enough for all that then you'll live in the city. Here is where you live if you want a house and a garden but can't afford that in the silly expensive city.

Middle class seems to cover such a wide range of income/occupation/life expectations now that it's almost ceasing to be a useful designation (if ever it was). I'd happily admit to being middle class, but the world of Chelsea tractors, Ocado and nannies is one which I've never been a part of, or really known people who were (except for at school).

Occy, if you went to Uni in the city we're on about then yes, one of those areas is right nearby. We go there and get Ocado deliveries, as well as also going to Tesco and Sainsbury's.

BUT the world of posh cars, nannies and all that is totally alien to me and TYF too. And we have no interest in joining that set too. TYF has an ancient (but fairly eco-good) rustbucket that he rarely drives: we pride ourselves on it always being the most rubbish car wherever we go As for nannies - hmmmph. I have Certain Opinions on people who have kids but don't want to do the actual raising themselves

I went to Uni in said city also!

Oo-er, you know, there's a good change we've bumped into each other years and years ago!

Sounds like it's all changed a bit. I made many visits to that Sainsbury's but don't remember Tesco (although it might've been there just further away so I never found it being bike/foot dependent). It was a great city to be a student in.