Mumsnet and Christmas *title edited by MNHQ*

[CheshireKitten123]

Am I the only person who is sick to death of reading all these posts from Mumsnet women who are tying themselves in knots trying to please everyone , husbands, DCs , stepchildren. exHs, inlaws etc. cooking Xmas dinners to take elsewhere, inviting people you can't stand the sight of, getting involved with toxic family and extended family dynamics.
For your own sanity please stop, and use the word 'NO'

Oh.

Was it because of the word Wmn in the title?

Scared now …

... not that I actually thought it was either misogynistic or goady @CheshireKitten123!

@ClaudiaJ1

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Very true. It’s not misogynistic, the discussion is literally about women. Even those who don’t agree with OP are making the point that this is about how women are socialised. Oh and “goady” is just a bullshit charge bandied about on MN to mean I don’t think this should be discussed.

If people are in any doubt that women can be their own worst enemies when it comes to Christmas expectations then just go and look at the AIBU thread about not hosting at Christmas. So many posters accusing that OP of being selfish and lazy because she’s not running herself ragged on Christmas Day.

Yes it's ridiculous IMO. It's one day it's not worth all this drama. It's wasteful excess and I honestly don't see the point. Why the hell are people wasting their day making canapes.

We have some eco friendly presents for the kids that they will like, use and enjoy and that's it. We don't have a Christmas dinner we have a meal we will all enjoy as my DCs are picky.

Xmas brings out the worst in people and shows tackiness greed and excess. It's too much and the real meaning of Christmas is generally totally lost in exhange for just throwing money around.

@Mittenmob

The thing is, if it all boils down to the woman saying 'no!' then what that means is that if you say no you basically ruin everyone else's plans and Christmas, the woman gets blamed for it all. And you may say 'so be it' but in reality it's not a nice position to be in.

I've said no to all of this and it just results in people finding me 'difficult' because I won't spend weekends catering for in-laws etc. So rather than a few dates of me rolling my eyes and feeling a bit annoyed, everyone hates me and it puts a huge pressure on any event and relationships within the family. It means DC no longer see their grandparents or cousins. So 'no' isn't always as simple as it sounds.

This is the second time on this thread that someone's commented on women being regarded as "difficult" if we don't comply, and it's so true!

My FIL regards me as a "bloody difficult woman." I'm not at all, most people who know me think I'm a delight. But he's gone through life bullying his family and being supported and enabled by MIL, and I came as a total shock to him, because I wouldn't be bullied.

I rather revel in my "difficult woman" status now, and tbh life is a lot easier now, because they don't have the expectations of me that they do of other women in the family.

I'm fine with people hating ME but me saying no to things mean my DC have lost an entire side of their family. I do say no, I have said no, I keep saying no but it has its consequences for others and I can see why some women might not want to be the 'difficult' one. Surely that's not that hard to comprehend?

Flagging it up here for starters

No you said:

Am I the only person who is sick to death of reading all these posts from Mumsnet women who are tying themselves in knots trying to please everyone[...]

Not seeing any advice on how to manage or help or support there. Just criticism of women posting for help or in frustration.

You could have posted something like "been reading a lot of posts from stressed out MNers. I'd like to recommend this book which I found helpful" if you actually wanted to support and change rather than double down on the women struggling with it all.

But nice attempt at retrospective justifiction.

@Mittenmob

I'm fine with people hating ME but me saying no to things mean my DC have lost an entire side of their family. I do say no, I have said no, I keep saying no but it has its consequences for others and I can see why some women might not want to be the 'difficult' one. Surely that's not that hard to comprehend?

Do you really want your DC to have involvement with people like that though? Consider it a blessing for your DC that you choose who they associate with. It really doesn't sound like they're any loss, and not having them in your DC's lives is surely a blessing? And the DC will understand this years down the track and be thankful to you.

I no longer give a fuck , my tree and decorations are done by the kids I don't plan huge get togethers where we feed and serve drinks to people running around like a blue arsed fly all day we don't have Christmas dinner where we spend ages cooking and cleaning up we have a takeaway and there is no gift drama's as we buy only for our kids and we give a bit of money to our parents to get themselves something. People are welcome to come visit but it's very chill and they make their own way here and back .

@C8H10N4O2 You know the OP doesn’t actually have to justify starting a thread? Nor are any of us obliged to give advice about anything here. We are actually allowed to have opinions and indeed others are entitled to agree or disagree which hopefully leads to discussion. Kind of the point of an Internet forum…

I think it’s often boiled frog syndrome. You do something “because it’ll be nice” one year. Well, it is nice and you all enjoy it, so you keep that going. Then something else gets dropped in, for good reasons at the time, but that now become “a thing”. Then the children come along and new traditions get started for them....
Suddenly you are doing a bloody elf, homemade crackers, baking Christmas cakes in November (still haven’t iced mine), picking up and hosting parents from 10am for Sherry and present swapping, cooking a dinner aaaaaand getting dressed up with a full face of make up in case someone puts the photos on social media.
Oh, all with beautifully wrapped presents and a seven foot high tree sustainably sources from a farm in Norfolk and collected by Newfoundland dogs. (More dressing up, more photos)
This explains why I am usually abroad for Christmas. I started booking into Butlins when DS was 6 to avoid it all.

BTW - those who said I was 'privileged' couldn't be further from the truth.

I spent years being a 'people-pleaser' because I desperately wanted validation, to be popular, to have loads of friends, to be the 'perfect wife'.

I ended up being mentally, emotionally and physically exhausted. I was lonely, miserable, unfulfilled and unhappy. My relationships were all $h!£ and my mental health was going down the pan. I hated my life and my job, but most of all I hated myself.

Working on the theory that nothing could get any worse I thought 'sod this for a game of soldiers' and started using the word 'No'.

It wasn't easy.

I lost a job, a marriage, (so-called) 'friendships' and relationships.

But I gained self-respect, self-love and the ability to be true to myself and attract authentic people and healthier situations.

That little word can change anyone's life for the better - I would highly recommend using it.

I’m a bit of an overachiever when it comes right down to it. But that’s because it’s very difficult for me to do things badly - they get done well or I choose not to do them at all. However I’ve learnt to pace myself. I do the things I actually want to do, and nothing more. I don’t pick up slack for other people, I don’t let anyone dictate to me and I never, ever listen to any attempt to guilt me - I ask myself, would any man anywhere feel guilty about this or even be thinking about it at all? Would a husband or father face any criticism for doing/not doing this? If not, I completely disregard any criticism. I’m not playing that martyrdom game.

If people want to think I’m difficult or lazy or selfish (isn’t it funny how it’s almost always the breathtakingly selfish people throwing that accusation around, just like the rude, obnoxious individuals always call you rude and obnoxious for being assertive!) then frankly they are free to do so. They simply don’t count as far as I’m concerned and their opinions are entirely irrelevant.

@HollyandIvyandAllThingsYule

I must say I’m not really appreciating the why are you all so mean, why can’t you just be kind subtext going on in this thread. I’m very supportive. But sometimes it gets frustrating and honestly this is one of those times.

I’m not going to shy away from saying that sometimes (most of the time, actually) women are their own worst enemies! Yes the patriarchy, yes, conditioning, but no, you’re not powerless! You’ve got agency.

Sometimes people should be told they’re being quite stupid (or silly, if that’s nicer) in bringing this nonsense upon themselves. Making nice noises at people doesn’t always actually help them.

Conditioning means you don't know if you're right though. They're not stupid or bringing it on themselves if they've always been taught they need to be unselfish, put others' needs before their own, and not consider themselves. It's not thinking 'hmm I could act reasonable...or act like a doormat...what will I choose.' At least not usually.

@C8H10N4O2

Flagging it up here for starters

No you said:

Am I the only person who is sick to death of reading all these posts from Mumsnet women who are tying themselves in knots trying to please everyone[...]

Not seeing any advice on how to manage or help or support there. Just criticism of women posting for help or in frustration.

You could have posted something like "been reading a lot of posts from stressed out MNers. I'd like to recommend this book which I found helpful" if you actually wanted to support and change rather than double down on the women struggling with it all.

But nice attempt at retrospective justifiction.

You are entitled to your opinion C8, as am I.

How many threads have we all read where people have taken the time and trouble to give logical, helpful suggestions, only to read a plethora of excuses from the OP as to why they can't do XYZ ?

It seems that being a martyr has an unhealthy payoff for some people

@georgarina you’re right, of course. As I said, I make plenty of allowances.

But sometimes a short, sharp shock is helpful. Being told straight out that you're being stupid to put up with it and that it’s your responsibility to change it is more supportive in the long run. Otherwise you get that thing where you whinge and whine and moan to your girlfriends about the useless, incompetent man/rude and obnoxious relatives/demands of mummy martyrdom, and then everyone sits around commiserating because that’s the supportive thing to do, and on and on it goes.

Whereas if someone (metaphorically) shouts at you YOU DO HAVE AGENCY HERE. SAY NO. KEEP SAYING NO. THE WORLD WON’T END. STOP PARTICIPATING IN YOUR OWN AND OTHER WOMEN’S OPPRESSION AND PERPETUATING IT IN YOUR FAMILY AND CIRCLES FOREVER MORE then things might actually change for you and many other women.

@georgarina

What's wrong with them is they're conditioned that their own needs are wrong/selfish/hysterical/unreasonable and the right and fair thing is to put everyone else's needs above their own. They're taught not to trust their own judgment/perception and to do as they're told instead.

I've been there. I'm still angry about it.

Putting up these posts is asking for confirmation that they can trust their instincts and stand up for themselves.

Interesting thread and discussion (frankly I find it quite extraordinary that MNHQ decided to go straight to the delete option because of a slightly provocative thread title, talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water! We are fortunate that they have retrenched on that, but still, bizarre moderating).

I think I mostly agree with @georgarina - a lot of these posts (which do get somewhat exasperating once you’ve read about a thousand of them) are women who have been brought up to have very poor boundaries and never developed the skills to assert themselves, and have reached their absolute limit and are struggling with how to deal with it - genuinely wondering whether they are being unreasonable by being unable to cope with everyone else’s expectations and demands. I know it seems so obvious to those of us who post on a lot of those threads but for the individual women who start them it can be a real turning point moment and I honestly believe it is one of the most valuable parts of these forums.

Also, a very important distinction:

Saying you are being stupid in this repeated scenario is not the same as saying someone is stupid.

(Not you personally, just to be clear as is necessary these days on here; the collective you)

Time to go about my day!🎄

@HollyandIvyandAllThingsYule oh I totally agree. I also get frustrated when people martyr themselves and choose not to take easy options for invented reasons because they want to be the victim. I just also have an insight into genuinely not knowing you're allowed to have boundaries, and thinking the smallest steps to asserting myself were wildly dramatic and unreasonable, because that's how I grew up.

holly

"Whereas if someone (metaphorically) shouts at you YOU DO HAVE AGENCY HERE. SAY NO. KEEP SAYING NO. THE WORLD WON’T END. STOP PARTICIPATING IN YOUR OWN AND OTHER WOMEN’S OPPRESSION AND PERPETUATING IT IN YOUR FAMILY AND CIRCLES FOREVER MORE then things might actually change for you and many other women."

This ^, with bells on !!

@Oblomov21

Mumsnet brings in more martyrs, and chronic anxiety, snd no backbone, than I see in RL.

Definitely we need a Like button! I often liken Mumsnet to the Python sketch The Four Yorkshiremen, women trying to outdo each other in the martyrdom, anxiety and no backbone stakes.

Many women have been conditioned to believe they can't say no if it means disappointing others.

This. Very much. I am trying all the time to be ok with saying no or with prioritising myself. But I still end up running myself ragged with a thousand thankless tasks that are never noticed or appreciated unless they're not done.

@GettingStuffed

My husband does over half the Christmas stuff, I'm in charge of menus and baking.

OH used to be incharge of outdoor lights, indoor decorations and getting the bloody tree to stand upright! I generally dealt with the food which I didn't mind, as long as no-one tried to 'help', I have many ways of making it easier. He died at the very start of lockdown one and I can tell you, putting lights up outside on the cold and wet and stringing all the indoor lights up (looks like NASA in places) isn't as easy as it looks, I've bought an artificail tree to make life easier. Give me the warm kitchen everytime, I've managed to get the lights up but it was knackering.