Page 2 | Mumsnet and Christmas *title edited by MNHQ*

Furries · 22/12/2021 03:09

Just to add. I’m from a VERY small family. No children I vilved (which obviously makes it easier).

But, even if you have kids (and you obviously cater for them re presents). There is no harm in all grown adults agreeing that you don’t need blooming presents!

As a small family, spread across the country - each of us with our own financial concerns x we “cancelled” Christmas two years ago. So we don’t buy presents for each other - we’d rather that we are all able to afford things that might crop up during the year. Or that we can go for the odd meal out (Covid caveat!). And that we have the funds for lovely food or drink over the festive period. We prioritise our funds for birthdays as they are more personal.

I’d honestly suggest that more adults try this approach. Unless you and your circle of friends/family are all fairly high earners, I’d bet there would be signs of relief all round. I have two friends, with two kids each who are under 18, and I will always get them something. But that’s as far as it goes now.

And no, Christmas isn’t miserable as a result. Much less stress!

Furries · 22/12/2021 03:11

*involved, not I vilved!

Kbish1 · 22/12/2021 03:12

Some of them will be martyrs. Some will still not be able to say no. Some will have agreed to plans and regretting it. Some will have agrees to one situation but find its slowly another one that's occurring.

I don't find any value is assuming all are poor souls conditioned into a miserable life or making out they are all martyrs.

The issue with learning to say no, is that for most of us we have to learn and make the decision to start doing it. Very few are raised like this.

ShippingNews · 22/12/2021 04:00

I'm not convinced that it's only Mumsnet women. I think it's more of a British trait. Since I moved to Australia I've realised how other people act in comparison to the UK, and I'm sure that's the problem. It's hard wired into the British female psyche that you have to please all of the people , all of the time, and never say no to anyone.

SantaClawsServiette · 22/12/2021 04:03

Maybe, op, on the other hand there are people who write posts about refusing to do things that seem like they are well within normal parameters for family too. Not being willing to see ILs over the Christmas holiday for example, not because it's a 2000 km away or they are horrible people, but just because they'd rather not.

SantaClawsServiette · 22/12/2021 04:07

@ShippingNews

I'm not convinced that it's only Mumsnet women. I think it's more of a British trait. Since I moved to Australia I've realised how other people act in comparison to the UK, and I'm sure that's the problem. It's hard wired into the British female psyche that you have to please all of the people , all of the time, and never say no to anyone.

This kind of behaviour can work out fine if people are equally careful about asking and imposing on others.

I wonder if people, overall, are more willing to do that now? So there are more unreasonable requests about accommodation?

I also think that in the past, many areas and local cultures had more set routines for holidays, and often less complicated family arrangements, which also might have simplified matters.

HelloBunny · 22/12/2021 04:22

My family is a patriarchal set-up. Mum & sister both pander to their men. Sister’s boy is considered God-like, so it will be the same with him. Trying to do it differently with my little guy...
So, yeah. Dad & BIL don’t like it when me & DH won’t comply with their plans. Mum & sister like it even less! I did have a cry a few weeks ago, about Christmas. But then I said, fuck this!

Mummyoflittledragon · 22/12/2021 04:28

This is a great post @Pinkypenguin

Instead of being so mean about these women, just be grateful you’ve had the opportunity to learn to be more assertive yourselves.

Many women have been conditioned to believe they can’t say no if it means disappointing others.

If you can help them to see that it’s perfectly reasonable to say no, then it’s the kind thing to do that. But if you can’t do that and you hate those kind of threads, don’t read them.

I was brought up to be an emotional support human and by extension to everyone. I didn’t realise until many many years into adulthood I had the right to say no and to assert my boundaries. In fact, I didn’t understand the concept of personal boundaries unless any used against me, to obey.

One particular incident sticks in my mind as to how far I have come thanks to years of therapy. When I was about 30 and the landlords at a house we had agreed to rent asked me which items they wanted us to leave and which to remove. I had to make decisions and wanted to say no to certain items. But was too scared. Really nice people as well so perfectly genuine. I ended up saying idk and making out I was overwhelmed by the enormity of moving when I wasn’t at all, I just didn’t think I could say no.

So yes, be grateful you were brought up to be allowed to assert your boundaries. Be grateful you weren’t too overwhelmed some days to pick up the phone and call the utility company because it was too scary. Be grateful your parents saw you as a person rather than their emotional support animal and punchbag.

Mummyoflittledragon · 22/12/2021 04:32

@HelloBunny

My family is a patriarchal set-up. Mum & sister both pander to their men. Sister’s boy is considered God-like, so it will be the same with him. Trying to do it differently with my little guy... So, yeah. Dad & BIL don’t like it when me & DH won’t comply with their plans. Mum & sister like it even less! I did have a cry a few weeks ago, about Christmas. But then I said, fuck this!

Well done for staying strong. You’ll get a lot of resistance but eventually you’ll hopefully just be seen as difficult and not to be tackled.

We have the patriarchal thing going in my family too. This came from both parents. My mother always defers to a man. Brother is golden child, violent and vile to me even in adulthood. I’m scapegoat. My mother projected all of her emotional issues and negative feelings about herself onto me. It was hard.

ImustLearn2Cook · 22/12/2021 04:41

@Pinkypenguin Great post. @Mummyoflittledragon
@CheshireKitten123 If you really are sick to death of reading all these posts you listed in your op, then could you not take your own advice and just say ‘no’ to yourself. No to reading posts that annoy you. Just don’t read them, then you won’t be sick to death of them.

Furries · 22/12/2021 04:55

@HelloBunny

My family is a patriarchal set-up. Mum & sister both pander to their men. Sister’s boy is considered God-like, so it will be the same with him. Trying to do it differently with my little guy... So, yeah. Dad & BIL don’t like it when me & DH won’t comply with their plans. Mum & sister like it even less! I did have a cry a few weeks ago, about Christmas. But then I said, fuck this!

Blooming hats off to you, that can’t have been easy. Best wishes for the new year (in relation to the weird stuff we are all experiencing) but also for continuing down your new road for your immediate family.

Fanmango · 22/12/2021 05:01

It's sad isn't it, what a miserable way to live.

Oblomov21 · 22/12/2021 05:15

Mumsnet brings in more martyrs, and chronic anxiety, snd no backbone, than I see in RL.

Mummyoflittledragon · 22/12/2021 05:48

Thanks IMustLearn.

I don’t think so @Oblomov21. I think it’s rather that people can be themselves due to anonymity. Do you really think I’d say what I did above to a bunch of strangers or mums at the school gates if they met me irl? And I’ve said far far more over the years, the past week even.

YourenutsmiLord · 22/12/2021 06:00

The world is basically misogynistic - or at least the western world is.

Just open a paper (I'm not on social media but don't need to spell out how evil it is to women)

Women MPs - there's always a slight mocking attitude - Lynne Truss at the moment, women celebs - same here, their clothes, figures, looks, latest bf - we just don't get the same about men.

JKR - she is being put down by those jealous of her success and wealth, disguised as Trans support. Thousands have spoken their views on trans but only she gets gone over again and again.

Stands to reason these attitudes affect ordinary women too - and it's often women who expect these kind deeds and skivvying for everyone else or you are a failed mother/ daughter/ wife/ etc etc etc

RedHot22 · 22/12/2021 06:03

I agree.
Although I do think much of the problem is that many women are control freaks and anyone wanting to help ‘won’t do it right’
I was a child growing up in this situation

Also, much of what they’re doing is deemed as unnecessary by others. I’ve seen this many, many times in my parents generation.

So I agree, they bring it on themselves.

iloveeverykindofcat · 22/12/2021 06:19

@MrJollyLivesNextDoor

I think some people must love being martyrs

My mum loves a good bit of martydom. Especially at Christmas.

nicesausages · 22/12/2021 06:27

I think women need to call the shots at Christmas, not bow to the way others expect them to be. Requires quite an assertive and firm approach and usually has to be in place from the outset.

lightisnotwhite · 22/12/2021 06:38

I don’t know. Most of my friends are very assured and happy to say no.

One who I would say is a best friend has never babysat or walked the dog for me as in 15 years. I’ve only asked when pushed ie when I’ve been ill but she won’t put herself out. Good for her maybe but frankly it comes across as being selfish and self serving more than assertive.

Putting yourself out for people ( who aren’t taking the piss ) is a nice thing.

isthismylifenow · 22/12/2021 06:41

When I see Christmas threads I see how much pressure is put onto people to do the right meal, have the right tree, an abundance of present for the DC. I feel like I am looking in from the outside as I don't live in the UK. I am not surprised that mental health problems are at an all time high this time of the year, as so much effort seems to go into making everything perfect and everyone else happy.

Like a pp mentioned, the expectations and differences are quite noticable.

The problem as I see it, is when it is expected, I can see how difficult it is to just suddenly say no. But the pressure of the day seems immense.

Nietzschethehiker · 22/12/2021 06:43

Can you really not see that posts like these are just the other side of the same coin? Some women feel judged whatever they do. For every post that women shouldn't be overrun and martyr themselves there are another 10 on the same threads (not necessarily the specific one you've read) guilting posters that older parents should be pandered to, they should be unselfish and consider other people's needs.

Mn is brilliant for both telling you to stand up for yourself at the same time as telling you to consider that other people have 53736 disabilities , or conditions or trauma that completely excuses other people's bad behaviour.

Seriously people can't win and now you've decided to judge those who feel they can't say no ? It's exactly the same behaviour where you have decided to kick someone when they are struggling. Why on earth do you think that is OK?

I'm not someone who worries about saying no. I don't do anything at Christmas that I don't see the value in. However I am absolutely sure if I posted the details of my setup I'd be accused simultaneously of being selfish towards one group and over indulgent towards others.

If you actually care about the pressures on others stop beating them with whatever convenient stick you find to make yourself feel superior .

People have different lives and different reasons for their setup. You are no more superior or wise than others in different situations so get down off your High horse.

Faevern · 22/12/2021 06:46

@Pinkypenguin

Instead of being so mean about these women, just be grateful you've had the opportunity to learn to be more assertive yourselves.

Many women have been conditioned to believe they can't say no if it means disappointing others.

If you can help them to see that it's perfectly reasonable to say no, then it's the kind thing to do that. But if you can't do that and you hate those kinds of threads, don't read them.

This; and it's not just on mumsnet that women are tying themselves up in knots.

However mumsnet is so competitive I think my question is "Am I the only person who is sick to death of reading all these posts from Mumsnet women who are in competition with each other and are so quick to put another woman down"

Is it projection, ignorance or does it make people feel superior? Why would a woman who is secure in herself feel the need to deride another?

chocolateorangeinhaler · 22/12/2021 06:52

I agree totally.
I've been sucked in by the hype in years gone by and worn myself ragged. Most of it is because of nigella lawsons soft focus grinning cooking shows. I've done the mice pies covered in edible glitter that makes everyone look like they have been in an explosion in a glitter factory for days afterwards. Done the faff of brining a turkey that just ends up tasking like turkey. Attended soirée after soirée that I didn't want to go to with a fake smile plastered on my face the whole time thinking that I haven't got time for this shit. Had arguments with family over who goes where and it ends up with at least one person not speaking for months.

This year it's just me and DP. Christmas will come in a box - literally. All our food will involve opening a packet or box and putting it in the oven. No parties because of Covid. I am so excited by the thought of none of the other crap having to happen.

FrancescaContini · 22/12/2021 06:53

@MrJollyLivesNextDoor

I think some people must love being martyrs

I agree. But it’s expressed in banging pots and pans around the kitchen and PA snippy comments (speaking from childhood experience) when they’ve drunk too much. It’s absolutely miserable to witness as a child.

ouchmyfeet · 22/12/2021 06:59

@Nietzschethehiker