Mumsnet and Christmas *title edited by MNHQ*

[CheshireKitten123]

Am I the only person who is sick to death of reading all these posts from Mumsnet women who are tying themselves in knots trying to please everyone , husbands, DCs , stepchildren. exHs, inlaws etc. cooking Xmas dinners to take elsewhere, inviting people you can't stand the sight of, getting involved with toxic family and extended family dynamics.
For your own sanity please stop, and use the word 'NO'

Absolutely diamond - I tell my DD all the time she can say no and to check if what she’s being asked to do is based on sexism.

@IcedAbstinente It's about doing away with really entrenched beliefs about yourself and your place in the world. if you are brought up to believe that you have absolutely no value except for what you can do for others then you replicate that over and over again. You probably have absolutely no idea that this is what you are doing.

So very true. Everything that we have learned over our lifetime has been learnt by repetition. It takes time, practice and support to replace learnt behaviours with new behaviours.

Learning to establish strong, healthy boundaries when your boundaries have been repeatedly trampled is difficult and challenging and can be quite daunting.

Practice, practice, practice with people who are supportive and respectful of yours and other peoples boundaries, before trying to set boundaries with the more difficult less respectful people in life. We learn from repetition.

Learn how to identify those who will build you up and those who would tear you down. Practice dismissing or avoiding or side stepping the people who overstep boundaries, tear people down, manipulate, abusive etc.

Seek out people who are basically good, kind, trustworthy and learn to surround yourself with those who respect themselves, others and you.

And if we have much to unlearn from past lessons than this will take longer to learn, it could take a lifetime, but is still worth it, so don’t be too hard on yourself. Get up and try again. Practice makes better.

Mumsnet is a good place to learn to recognise the people who are supportive and the people who enjoy tearing other people down. It’s a good place to practice dismissing unwarranted criticisms and gaslighting manipulations. And a good place to give or take on board helpful and good advice.

Being an Aussie and being far more direct that the polite British, I find it extremely frustrating beyond belief reading what UK people especially women will put up with. I just want to shake some f*king common sense, brains and assertiveness into people. I find this site extremely frustrating. People are too 'awkward' and too lacking in assertiveness to stand up for themselves or their children, they'd rather lie than say what's on their mind. They'd rather go along with something they know is wrong just 'for a peaceful life'. It's not just Christmas, the who polite British/UK way is beyond frustrating for me. Nothing ever really gets resolved because people on here martyr themselves and suffer than be assertive. I'll never understand how British women think, how they would rather suffer than stand up for themselves. I just want to scream at them.

[quote ImustLearn2Cook]**@IcedAbstinente* It's about doing away with really entrenched beliefs about yourself and your place in the world. if you are brought up to believe that you have absolutely no value except for what you can do for others then you replicate that over and over again. You probably have absolutely no idea that this is what you are doing.*

So very true. Everything that we have learned over our lifetime has been learnt by repetition. It takes time, practice and support to replace learnt behaviours with new behaviours.

Learning to establish strong, healthy boundaries when your boundaries have been repeatedly trampled is difficult and challenging and can be quite daunting.

Practice, practice, practice with people who are supportive and respectful of yours and other peoples boundaries, before trying to set boundaries with the more difficult less respectful people in life. We learn from repetition.

Learn how to identify those who will build you up and those who would tear you down. Practice dismissing or avoiding or side stepping the people who overstep boundaries, tear people down, manipulate, abusive etc.

Seek out people who are basically good, kind, trustworthy and learn to surround yourself with those who respect themselves, others and you.

And if we have much to unlearn from past lessons than this will take longer to learn, it could take a lifetime, but is still worth it, so don’t be too hard on yourself. Get up and try again. Practice makes better.

Mumsnet is a good place to learn to recognise the people who are supportive and the people who enjoy tearing other people down. It’s a good place to practice dismissing unwarranted criticisms and gaslighting manipulations. And a good place to give or take on board helpful and good advice.[/quote]
Excellent post. Agree with every word.

@C8H10N4O2 you are so right. This is not about sneering at mumsnet mums who are not assertive enough, it's a much more fundamental discussion about women in society.

I must say I’m not really appreciating the why are you all so mean, why can’t you just be kind subtext going on in this thread. I’m very supportive. But sometimes it gets frustrating and honestly this is one of those times.

I’m not going to shy away from saying that sometimes (most of the time, actually) women are their own worst enemies! Yes the patriarchy, yes, conditioning, but no, you’re not powerless! You’ve got agency.

Sometimes people should be told they’re being quite stupid (or silly, if that’s nicer) in bringing this nonsense upon themselves. Making nice noises at people doesn’t always actually help them.

Yes. And even the title is not that bad. It drew me in. It inspires an important discussion. Women who are mired in this stuff might get a lot from it. It’s not the end of the world to be challenged. I am a “mumsnet woman”, I’m not offended even though the accusation is a sweeping generalisation and doesn’t apply to me. I just argued back instead. We can do that.

And yes, it's absolutely about women and our place in society - this is a far bigger issue than just a few threads on a forum.

I also wasn’t remotely offended by the title…goodness, reflection on this issue is very important and refreshing. Perhaps it will encourage some women to say - fuck this shit, I’m not running myself ragged just to please others.

I have never bought into this. I shop for the presents because i enjoy it, dh shops for the food and cooks Xmas dinner. We don't have guests or do much visiting around Christmas, we are lucky that all our family live near by, and there are 6 of us so we don't really need any extra company. Christmas dinner is just a glorified roast with a simple starter and a few extra bits, no fuss. Some people would find our Christmas quite dull i am sure, but it is quiet and relaxing and we have fun together as a family.

Even referring to “Mumsnet women” in the title isn’t reason to take a thread down. If OP said women generally you can be guaranteed lots of posters would have called that a generalisation and there would be lots of responses saying they only really see this on MN! Or are people to measure their words so carefully that OP should done a survey to calculate percentages of women before starting the thread?

If this thread was actually reported by somebody then it was on the basis that an opinion I read on the internet has offended my eyes 🙄. I really didn’t think MN removed threads for that kind of shit or is the place now being run by university students?

The thing is, if it all boils down to the woman saying 'no!' then what that means is that if you say no you basically ruin everyone else's plans and Christmas, the woman gets blamed for it all. And you may say 'so be it' but in reality it's not a nice position to be in.

I've said no to all of this and it just results in people finding me 'difficult' because I won't spend weekends catering for in-laws etc. So rather than a few dates of me rolling my eyes and feeling a bit annoyed, everyone hates me and it puts a huge pressure on any event and relationships within the family. It means DC no longer see their grandparents or cousins. So 'no' isn't always as simple as it sounds.

My husband does over half the Christmas stuff, I'm in charge of menus and baking.

Ahem...uni days were a long time ago but thanks anyway @WhatsMyNameGonnaBeNow.

We understand why folk want the thread to stay. As we said in our previous post, there are lots of compelling posts on the thread.

That said, the title was reported as being misogynistic and goady and we had to agree. We've now edited the title so that the discussion can continue.

Thanks all.

While I think it's a good idea to edit the title and let the thread stay up @LivMumsnet, the new title is so bland it doesn't reflect what the thread is about!

"Why do women put so much pressure on themselves at Christmas?" might have been more accurate - and less goady or misogynistic.

Honestly I know what you mean... I've got a friend whose made herself ill doing everything for her family!

And he does nothing but work and pay for things... he doesn't want her to work
Yet they never have spare cash.
She's in and out of hospital. When I enquired how she was doing? When is she home? His reply: yeah I might get some dinner tonight

Wtf!!!!!

@Mittenmob

The thing is, if it all boils down to the woman saying 'no!' then what that means is that if you say no you basically ruin everyone else's plans and Christmas, the woman gets blamed for it all. And you may say 'so be it' but in reality it's not a nice position to be in.

I've said no to all of this and it just results in people finding me 'difficult' because I won't spend weekends catering for in-laws etc. So rather than a few dates of me rolling my eyes and feeling a bit annoyed, everyone hates me and it puts a huge pressure on any event and relationships within the family. It means DC no longer see their grandparents or cousins. So 'no' isn't always as simple as it sounds.

Yes, it is as simple as it sounds! If people hate you because you won't be their servant, SO BE IT!!! Why do you want to be liked by people like that, anyway? You're making excuses. The sooner you put your foot down, and say why, the sooner they learn you mean business, are not a walk over and will respect your for it. It really, genuinely, truly, IS as simple as that.

@Mittenmob then I’m afraid you’re still framing it according to everyone else, rather than giving yourself equal standing. Why should your Christmas be ruined so that everyone else can have their way? What makes their plans more important?

You may be blamed but you don’t actually have to accept that blame and play along with the dynamic. If saying no creates such an issue then the solution really isn’t to stop saying no but to say no more often until people learn to accept it. Or, if they can’t accept it and continue to cast you in the wrong for having some boundaries and some self-worth and self-respect, to disengage from that. Otherwise you perpetuate it, and the next generation learns from you, perpetuating it yet again.

Everyone hates you? Because you won’t dance to their tune every single time? If they hate you so much I expect it might be better for your children to be protected from them and their dysfunctional relationship model.

The title was not misogynistic. Don’t be so ridiculous.

@Mittenmob

The thing is, if it all boils down to the woman saying 'no!' then what that means is that if you say no you basically ruin everyone else's plans and Christmas, the woman gets blamed for it all. And you may say 'so be it' but in reality it's not a nice position to be in.

I've said no to all of this and it just results in people finding me 'difficult' because I won't spend weekends catering for in-laws etc. So rather than a few dates of me rolling my eyes and feeling a bit annoyed, everyone hates me and it puts a huge pressure on any event and relationships within the family. It means DC no longer see their grandparents or cousins. So 'no' isn't always as simple as it sounds.

I'd rather be hated by loathsome people I wouldn't give the time of day to, than hate myself because I think so little of myself I would run myself ragged and put my own needs last. I'd sooner be hated by scum that don't matter, than hate myself. In fact, I would see it as a badge of honour if scum like that hated me.

[quote HollyandIvyandAllThingsYule]@Mittenmob then I’m afraid you’re still framing it according to everyone else, rather than giving yourself equal standing. Why should your Christmas be ruined so that everyone else can have their way? What makes their plans more important?

You may be blamed but you don’t actually have to accept that blame and play along with the dynamic. If saying no creates such an issue then the solution really isn’t to stop saying no but to say no more often until people learn to accept it. Or, if they can’t accept it and continue to cast you in the wrong for having some boundaries and some self-worth and self-respect, to disengage from that. Otherwise you perpetuate it, and the next generation learns from you, perpetuating it yet again.

Everyone hates you? Because you won’t dance to their tune every single time? If they hate you so much I expect it might be better for your children to be protected from them and their dysfunctional relationship model.[/quote]
If saying no creates such an issue then the solution really isn’t to stop saying no but to say no more often until people learn to accept it. Or, if they can’t accept it and continue to cast you in the wrong for having some boundaries and some self-worth and self-respect, to disengage from that. Otherwise you perpetuate it, and the next generation learns from you, perpetuating it yet again.

Exactly!

It’s honestly just getting stupid. When did everything get so pathetic??

@BIWI

While I think it's a good idea to edit the title and let the thread stay up *@LivMumsnet*, the new title is so bland it doesn't reflect what the thread is about!

"Why do women put so much pressure on themselves at Christmas?" might have been more accurate - and less goady or misogynistic.

Totally agree BIWI

My MIL used to do a brilliant Christmas. Worked really hard, loads of nice food and drinks. We all had a great time.
I took it all for granted having never at that time been the woman who put on Christmas.
I remember her exploding at FIL one year saying she hadn't had a drink on Christmas Day for 30 years so that she could drive his parents home at the end of the day. His reply? "next year just don't invite them then."
Breathtakingly selfish and also an example of how women are coerced - you do it because I certainly won't and it will be your fault when it doesn't happen.