How do you define 'childfree'?

[Lottapianos]

To me, being 'childfree' means that you don't have children, won't ever be having children, and (on balance) you are happy about that. I see parents on here saying things like 'i was childfree until I was 35' or 'i have a childfree weekend coming up'. Not having children yet is not the same as knowing that you won't ever be a parent. Other people taking care of your children for a while is not the same as being childfree. Some of us on here made a positive early choice to lead a childfree life, some of us got there later and through a more complex route, but we all share a common identity as people who are not parents

Do others on here agree?

@Ifeelsuchflutterings "So if you know there are several different opinions why did you go to MN and try to get the board split as if there was only one opinion on childfree vs childless and that one opinion happened to be yours?"

I'll have to go back and see what I said-but you certainly seem to be suggesting I think I have more power than I do. And I honestly don't understand why you're so cross with me! I'm saying what I think, not issuing papal encyclicals!

Childfree can mean for an hour or two, or forever.

Im not cross I'm asking you a question, you are the one prescribing an emotion to it

Im just not sure why you are still here telling childfree people about what you think they should call themselves when you are not childfree

As a mixed race woman you remind me of the people who told me I should call myself white, because my mother is white, or the people who told me I couldnt call myself white because my father isnt white. Neither set of people were mixed race. But both thought they had the right to impose on me their opinion of how I should define myself because it made them more comfortable if I defined myself in a way that they preferred.

I am not here to make you more comfortable in having a nuanced conversation around whether my childfree/less state is based on my medical/relationship/contraceptive status. Those are private affairs that are frankly none of your business. And Im not sure why you need to be having so many nuanced conversations about women without children that you need to keep coming back to the childfree board to reiterate the same point to us.

Mmm, I understand your examples, but I can't see the issue being the interchangeable interpretation of the word Child-free, for example, when someone thinks they should get priority holiday at Christmas. That's just being a dick. Irrespective of who wants to use which label.

The one that made me think more, was "I know what being childfree for life is like because I was childfree until I had kids"

Because you find this unreasonable, and I find it totally reasonable, simply because the word means different things to each of us.

For you to take offence, it would have to be me saying that statement, but with the meaning you attribute to it, which would not happen, because I would only be speaking in my context of what the word means. (This is a right pickle to explain, I hope it makes sense)

You attribute, permanently, positively decided not to have children. I attribute, without child.

I would be saying "I know what being childfree without a child for life is like because I was childfree without a child until I had a child"

Now whilst that's terrible grammar, I'm literally saying, I know what it's like not to have a child, because I didn't have a child.

In your interpretation of the word, that statement becomes "I know what being childfree a person who has decided to never have children and feel positive about this for life is like because I was childfree a person who has decided to never have children and feel positive about this until I had kids"

Which you would never say, because it's a complete contradiction in terms, and I would never say because of the same, and also it's not what I take the word to mean.

So whilst you hear the latter, because that's your interpretation, I'm saying the former.

Yes? Clear as mud?

@Ifeelsuchflutterings "you need to keep coming back to the childfree board to reiterate the same point to us."

I think I might have been on two threads? And this one is actually talking about definitions! I can't actually find my post in site stuff-I'm on the App so searching is difficult- but I remember that I posted because I hadn't realised there had been a lengthy discussion about it, and I thought Mumsnet was being crass and insensitive by conflating the two terms!

I get what you are saying and your examples were clear but I dont actually think they quite work in the context I was explaining for a couple of reasons:

*I would be saying "I know what being childfree without a child for life is like because I was childfree without a child until I had a child"

Now whilst that's terrible grammar, I'm literally saying, I know what it's like not to have a child, because I didn't have a child.*

You saying you know what its like to not have a child because you didnt have a child at one point makes sense. You saying you know what its like to not have a child for life, because you didnt have a child at one point is not the same thing.

So you telling me you know what its like to have a house thats not full of kids toys because at one point you didnt have a child makes perfect sense (not the best example but its late!)

You telling me that you dont believe childfree women get treated x way because you were childfree until you were 25 and thats the same as being childfree for life, doesn't make the same sense.

Like I said I have an issue with parents using the "I was childfree once" when it is used against childfree people specifically. Which is why your example doesnt work, because you are changing it to how you would use it, which isnt "against" childfree people.

But on MN there are plenty of people who use the "I was childfree before I had kids so.." in the same way people say "I'm sorry but" where the but negates the apology, or "I dont mean to be rude" and then say something rude.

Its when its used as "I was childfree before I had kids so... (insert random insulting thing about childfree women here" that I am talking about specifically

And when it was explained to you that there had been a lengthy thread and childfree and childless people perferred to have a space together you said it was a crap decision in your opinon.

As in, despite what childless and childfree people thought about their own decision, you still thought it important enough to tell them that their decison was crap because in your opinion we should be seperated. Despite you not being impacted by this one bit.

@Ifeelsuchflutterings I'm very sorry if I expressed myself like that-that was wrong of me. But I do think it does impact on me- it impacts on all of us. There are important discussions to be had about women and reproductive rights and the perception in society of women with and without children.

What childless and childfree people decide to call themselves does not impact you and wider society.

There are indeed important discussions to be had around reproductive rights and the perception of those without children, but that can happen at the same time as respecting how we in the group self-refer.

Unless you’re suggesting that being able to artificially separate us along a party line selected from outside the group is vital to stand up for a woman’s right to choose, in which case I’m actually speechless.

And your perception of childfree vs childless women is that its cruel to tell a childless woman that she is unnatural, abnormal and will die alone. But by insisting on applying that distinction it comes across that its totally fine to tell a childfree woman that. Where as actually its wrong in either case and the distinction is not needed.

Women without children are often treated the same, and spoken about the same regardless of the reason. So it's perfectly possible to talk about the perception of women with and without children in society without insisting on a rigid distinction between childfree and childless.

In fact the only reason to insist on a rigid distinction is if you perceive childfree and childless women in vastly different ways. And more often than not those different ways boil down to "women without children are selfish - but not you, not women like you, just those ones over there who never wanted children"

And honestly I stand with those supposedly selfish childfree women not those wanting a distinction between us.

@Ifeelsuchflutterings "And your perception of childfree vs childless women is that its cruel to tell a childless woman that she is unnatural, abnormal and will die alone. But by insisting on applying that distinction it comes across that its totally fine to tell a childfree woman that."
If you have genuinely taken that from my posts, then there has obviously been a monumental breakdown in communication.

You mean your posts where you specifically said that those things were cruel to say to a childless person, on a thread where both childfree and childless people where saying these things had been said to them?

It's not just me who has taken that from your posts. You were called out for it at the time by several people

But if there is a monumental breakdown in communication then perhaps you can clear it up by explaining why the distinction between childfree and childless is important for:

There are important discussions to be had about women and reproductive rights and the perception in society of women with and without children.

It's like how some mothers call themselves single parents when their husbands work away occasionally. No, Susan, you are not a single parent if you still have a husband supporting your family. Claiming to be is offensive to actual single mothers who do it all alone.

You don't automatically become something else just because you don't have something in your presence temporarily.

@Ifeelsuchflutterings Sorry. Not playing any more. If you can actually provide quotes of me saying that it's OK to call anyone, childless or child free, that they are "cruel, unnatural and will die alone" I'll reengage. But if not, not.

If you can actually provide quotes of me saying that it's OK to call anyone, childless or child free, that they are "cruel, unnatural and will die alone

I haven't said that

I've said this

And your perception of childfree vs childless women is that its cruel to tell a childless woman that she is unnatural, abnormal and will die alone. But by insisting on applying that distinction it comes across that its totally fine to tell a childfree woman that

Which I have attached a screenshot of given you are insisting on evidence.

And I do find it interesting that the point you want to disengage isnt the comment above, which we have already decidded was a breakdown in communication, but actually where you are asked to explain this:

*why the distinction between childfree and childless is important for:

There are important discussions to be had about women and reproductive rights and the perception in society of women with and without children.*

Because I think the issue is that you cannot explain this. Which is why you are now disengaging.

It matters because, we - childfree people - say so. We ask you not to define yourself as childfree on this board if you have children.

Because some of us take offence, as we do not see you as childfree, and by stating you are childfree, but are a parent, we see you as trying to claiming as the one little space we have to ourselves on Mumsnet. We campaigned for this space, so feel like we have the right to use the term Childfree as we see fit.

On. This. Board. Only.

I didn't even notice which board the post was on, I responded to the OP which was not about how you want to use the term on a particular board on Mumsnet, but about the use of the term in general language.

It WAS about how you define the term in the context of this board, as it was on the childfree board. But I agree the OP was a bit vague in referring to 'here', which all the childfree took as 'this board' and everyone else as 'Entire Mumsnet'.

Also, if you want to contribute to a discussion it's a good idea to read said discussion before offering your opinion.

And yes, we know this is mumsnet and we are allowed to be here by MNHQ edict...

'But I agree the OP was a bit vague in referring to 'here', which all the childfree took as 'this board' and everyone else as 'Entire Mumsnet'

I am the OP, and I agree it was a bit vague! I think I meant the Childfree board specifically but could have been clearer

I think most of us got it nevertheless, except for the people wandering in here, ignoring the discussion and the name of the board. But I've come to the realisation that 'context' is a very difficult concept, but in the words of Margaret Atwood: "Context is all."

@FufferPish there's no need to be so grumpy. There is no requirement for people to check the topic a post has been added to before responding. The OP's post didn't specify anything about the "childfree board". If you must know I'd read the OP and first two responses (which also didn't refer to the "childfree board") which were the only ones there at the time, typed a response then got distracted by kid hahaaaa. So didn't post it until later. 🤷🏻‍♀️

There is no requirement, but as you can see, it can lead to additional discussion and/or confusion when people don't.

Generally I agree but some people may have genuinely thought they wouldn't have children ever and identified as Childfree for a time and then circumstances changed.

At 35, I would have happily identified as Childfree, having no intention of having children. I got unexpectedly broody a few years later, and stopped using contraception, as it happened I didn't get pregnant, but had I done so I might have said that I was Childfree before I had children. Now I would once again identify mainly as Childfree.

I consider myself child free, but I didn’t exactly make a decision to be this way. I am asexual with PTSD following sexual assault and have been single, not completely by choice but I haven’t made an effort not to be, for well over a decade. I know I couldn’t cope with all of the medical interventions that would be involved if I choose to have a child alone through artificial insemination and I have poor mental health, am neurodiverse and have a limited support circle so I am fairly sure I wouldn’t be approved for adoption. I would have loved to have children but in my late 30s I have realised it will never happen for me, I suppose maybe I should call myself childless rather than childfree considering it hasn’t come about through choice so much as by situation but I feel childless has more negative connotations than childfree.

@MolkosTeenageAngst sorry to hear that... Thanks for sharing and I hope you will be able to come to terms with your situation.

To me, being 'childfree' means that you don't have children, won't ever be having children, and (on balance) you are happy about that.

That is my understanding of it, also.

To the outside world, you may appear to be and be described as "childless", but if you have made a decision around reproducing, then you are in fact childfree. I don't think I would ever describe myself that way to others, though.

The other thing is, children can come into your life in other ways, whether you want them to or not. You could be 50 and happily single, say, and meet a divorced man and next thing you know you have (rather annoying) adult children in your mix. Or your sister could die and your niece comes to live with you for a couple of years until she is 18. Still childless yourself, but not childfree.