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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

Parents sending children to cm while they are on holiday themselves

663 replies

susiemumof · 17/05/2012 12:29

Not looking for a argument or aibu type thread.

Am new to cm and have a 6mo mindee 60 hours per week, mum has a day off next week (which she did not even need to tell me about) but has said she will still send said mindee as she would like a day to herself.

I actually offer a large discount on days when mindees are not with me so can't even put it down to wanting to get her monies worth.

Was just really wondering how common other childminders have found this?

It's obviously no problem for me to have the child and I am loving my new job, it just makes me a bit sad for the baby itswim.

OP posts:
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thebody · 23/05/2012 17:30

My dear mad unless you apologise for calling me unprofessional I cant take you seriously.

Thanks for good wishes for dd.

InterviewMAD · 23/05/2012 20:38

Where did I call you personally unprofessional? Confused

You are missing my point. I don't think childcare should be a "professional" role at all.

I think by turning the "what" of family childcare into what is now, essentially, an early education teaching role in order to validate it and allow women to earn money for it e.g. by "professionalising" the role, we are saying that the act of childcare itself (as it would, say, be done by a SAHM) is invalid. I won't be at all surprised when the day comes where SAHMs are asked to "prove" they are "educating" childcare and I suspect already CMs may be referenced as professionals by mothers e.g. "Mary told me and she's a childminder.

The goals of early childhood development are to become a member of your community. You learn to talk, to play, to explore, to toilet, to eat a range of foods, to say please and thank you, to share and co-operate, to show and accept love and affection. You do not need a "curriculum" to do this in the ordinary way of things, although in my own role I very much appreciate there are children with special educational needs who do benefit from having targeted baselines and goals with respect to some of these areas, the average child will flourish just by being in a stable type family or home environment, wandering about, pottering, getting mucky, watching a person iron (oh shock horror) etc. It just happens. It is the wonder of our humanity that it is as varied and diverse as it is but the current EYFS has the most ludicrous set of almost businessy goals, and some of them don't even make sense in relation to eachother. Knowing some position words, for example, is something that just happens with no tuition, just because, between the ages of 2 and 3.. earlier for some, later for others. Knowing numerals 1-9, on the other hand, is arguably entirely unnecessary before 5... yet I know my 2.5 year old has been "taught" these things at nursery. And that's before we consider the ludicrousness of 20 white british under 2's "celebrating Diwali" when there is no one in the nursery who does, because it's "important" to celebrate other cultures (yet this is entirely conceptually unaccessible for those under-2's).

And as for some of the "social skills" e.g.

? Considers the consequences of words and actions for self and others
? Uses talk to organise, sequence & clarify thinking, ideas, feelings & events, exploring the meanings & sounds of new words
? Understands that people have different needs, views, cultures & beliefs that need to be treated with respect

There are people who are in their 50's who can't do these if you're going to be literal about them. Yes, social development is a massive part of learning for this age range but these descriptors are meaningless and very difficult to operationalise in a true, human way. All of them are things that just happen naturally and are quite difficult and require masses of specific skill to rectify if they don't. You might as well write: - gets taller or - hair grows.

You think "professional" = good and so therefore something to aspire to, and saying something like not working with your own kids there is "unprofessional" is a dig/judgemental/wrong etc. Professional has become a value-laden term associated with identity, when that's not what I mean.

I think "professional" in the childminding context = not good.

Safeguarding policies, not taking unnecessary risks all that = fine.
Seeing it as about "teaching" = over the top.

However, I don't think there's any immediate going back to how it was because a) women wouldn't get paid adequately as to get paid in our current world you have to be achieving achievable tickable targets and b) we don't have the societal structure anymore that supports a more "normal" sort of childcare arrangement.

I simply said that I don't think it's compatible with a "professional" role to have your children on site while you work. I would rather be in a position where my son could be with a lovely old woman like my Nan was who would become part of the family but sadly, that's not affordable for the average family and the alternative is now to just accept that he is going to be "taught" a "curriculum" no matter what. I just think it's stuff and nonsense.

MaryPoppinsBag · 24/05/2012 14:26

InterviewMAD - do you not regard nursery workers or other early years practitioners as 'professionals' then? Or not deem it necessary for their role to be 'professional'?

Why wouldn't a mother reference Mary's advice and attribute it to her being a CM?
In doing so that mother recognises and respects Mary's knowledge, experience and training.

InterviewMAD · 24/05/2012 15:00

I just don't think it's necessary for a good childminder to be set up as an early learning professional . I don't think there's as much specific training, knowledge etc required to provide a good/outstanding childcare environment.

I also think it's not what most parents who choose childminders actually want. They want a safe, loving, homely environment, not one in which it's about early childhood pedagogy UK style (learning numbers, subtraction, addition or, to take my previous example, calling "puddle jumping" an "activity" linked to "learning goals" etc). Unfortunately, the simple things in life - humanity, love, compassion, good humour, a sense of fun and playfulness - are not "tiny achievable tickable targets" that can be deemed to be "professionally" or "unprofessionally" achieved.

There are some children who do need more "professionalised" care - children with attachment issues, some special educational needs etc that can't be met without specialist knowledge, training and experience- but in the main, your averagely developing child just needs a safe, comfortable and warm environment where the person providing care does so with as much care as they would their own child (e.g. doesn't plonk them in front of a TV while they natter on the phone).

It seems to me that to "ensure" that those childminders who might be indifferent or cold provide an adequate experience for all, these nonsensical curricula have been created so that it can be "proven" or "evidenced" that a normal, standard level of care is provided.

I sort of see how this happened, and why so many people want it.. but you know, it's just not something I agree with. My son is in nursery and I am very circumspect about it. I don't think he LOVES it, I know he would prefer to be with me, I think it would be better for him to be with me... but I don't need a portfolio of evidence that they are DOING WORTHWHILE THINGS with him to assuage my own feelings of ambivalence and discomfort that he is in childcare. I would like to know that they respond to his needs and keep him clean, safe, dry and warm, give him cuddles when he falls over, laugh when he is cute and don't totally lose the rag with him or make him bad about himself when he is being a brat unruly toddler. I just want to know they are decent.

I think women who provide this sort of care "in loco parentis" should be adequately compensated for the service they provide without needing to jump through silly hoops or be trained and considered "professionals". I think by professionalising it, it's saying these sorts of caring roles are inadequate unless they are attached to "targets" and "training" and "deadlines" and "inspections". To me, a childminder is a role like that of the doula: a support, like a member of the extended family, someone there to provide care and reassurance and assistance NOT teaching and "professionalism".

It's been my experience that some of the very best childminders who have the attributes I would want have relatively poor Ofsted ratings because of how they do paperwork, while others who perhaps are more cool and distant with their mindees but sticklers for ensuring that everything is nicely updated and photographed and linked to the early learning goals are graded much more highly.

I don't want any childminder (or nursery worker, if I am honest) doing numeracy or literacy based activities with my under-5 year old. I don't agree with it being done at this age. I want my child to explore his environment on his own terms but while being adequately supervised and cared for. That's all.

MaryPoppinsBag · 24/05/2012 16:29

I think CM has gone this way due to the lack of respect that was given to CM and the job that they we're doing. And due to parents wanting 'the best' for their children and seeing it on paper seems the way. (although when my DS finished FS2 last year not many of the parents knew what the early learning goals were or what the numbers meant - working class school though)

I have lost count of the number of mums I have heard say 'oh since DC has started at x nursery or y childminder they have come on so much' I always think would they not have developed in that way otherwise? Because mine have and they are at home with me.

I have never ever believed that nursery is the best start for a child. (it may be better for some children due to their home life or maybe necessary for parents to work) And after working in one recently I definitely don't think it is better for the child. I have however used a pre school for my DS's purely for social interaction.

The literacy and numeracy can be done though as part of natural play/ singing/ reading though. Like my Mum did with me. I do not intend to teach my mindees.

TheIronLady · 25/05/2012 12:55

I have a parent who always sends her little one to me when she has time off - I have mindee five days per week.

If I think about 'reasons' I guess she feels she needs time to herself and says, mindee has much more fun here :-(

Saltire · 25/05/2012 21:38

So what about parents who do the following

Take their 2 under 5 children to a childminder 7.30 am till 6.00pm, 5 days a week.

The mum goes and sits in the childmidners next door neighbours garden and plays with next door neighbours children in paddling pool. This results in childminder not beign able to go out into garden as mindees can see their mum and want to be with her

Parents also go to funfair/soft play/swimming pool/thomas land/digger land etc with neighbour adn neighbours children then picks her children up from childmidner and tell tehm what she's done.

Parents also goes ot legoland for the day with neighbour and neighbours children, repeat as above.
Parents go to Flamingo Land with neighbour and neighoburs children

by parents I mean both mindees aprents

scottishmummy · 26/05/2012 09:57

so long as said mum pays cm on time it's not cm business
and a mum working 10and half hour day, well she's hardly one to cast aspersions. given the cm clearly needs or wants the fees

Saltire · 26/05/2012 11:30

The mum wasn't working 10.5 hour days though, she worked 8.45 till 12.30

redglow · 26/05/2012 15:35

Saltire that is just awful how cruel makes me wonder why some people bother having kids.

MaryPoppinsBag · 26/05/2012 16:53

Saltire that is awful!

susiemumof · 26/05/2012 17:13

Saltire- Reading they posts I started to wonder if we both lived in the same kind of environment! A quick search confirmed we are both in the same "club"

Not something I have experienced with my own mindees but what you have posted sounds so much like the estate I live on!

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 26/05/2012 17:53

do keep up the cm works 10.5hr day
cm isn't knocking back that work,is she
so as i said if cm willing to work 10.5 day, 50+hr week...well that's up to her

scottishmummy · 26/05/2012 17:59

it's all askance at a mum using cm 50+hr week
any comment on the cm who works 7.30 - 6? any why did she bother having kids quips to make?or is the vitriol only reserved for the folk who pa cm fees

some of you cm spectacularly miss point
if a mum works 50 or 60 hr week, then the cm is working it too
so actually the cm has a long working week too. cm clearly willing to work to work 60hr week, so no different from the mum

redglow · 26/05/2012 19:16

Been there and done that argument all last week Scottish mummy. I was saying how cruel taking other kids somewhere and playing with them in the garden when she could be with her own.

scottishmummy · 26/05/2012 20:00

still,comes back to cm works the 50/60hr week.so frankly in no position to opine on other working mums

but this is always nicely side stepped

Saltire · 26/05/2012 20:54

Ah but the CM was initially only supposed to work 8-5, 3 days a week. Anyway the childminder in question doesn't do it now. The parents she CM'd for, after she gave them notice, slandered her all over the place and she got reported falsely to OFSTED, on more than one occasion,the parents still work same hours - the dad none at all , the mum 7.45 till 12.30/45 and the children go to nursery 7.30 - 6.30pm 5 days a week

MaryPoppinsBag · 26/05/2012 20:59

Scottishmummy
We were commenting on the choice of Saltaires mindees mother spending her free time playing with kids next bloody door to her own kids and going out with them to attractions they'd want to visit it is fucking bonkers! And totally unjustifiable. And quite frankly the emotional well being of the mindees is a CM's business. By law it is!

We aren't debating 60 hour working weeks. Get your facts right.
Why are you on the defensive all the time do you feel guilty about your choices?

MaryPoppinsBag · 26/05/2012 21:00

Sorry not your mindees Saltaires someone you know.

scottishmummy · 26/05/2012 21:02

saltire work 50 hr week?
still at least shell empathise with working mums putting in this hours

sunshinenanny · 26/05/2012 23:18

I turned down a job many years ago when I learned I would be working from 7.30am till 9.00pm while dad was at work and mother worked in London and would only come home one week out of four. The child was 2mnths old and I wondered why on earth they had bothered to have him as they didn't intend to see much of him

And yes redglow, I agree with you; it is cruel. I also agree with a lot of what interviewMAD says.

redglow · 27/05/2012 00:53

Scottishmummy get your facts right before you comment. I didn't say that mums that work long hours should not have children. So I didn't nicely sidestep anything.

Really sad story sunshine, mayb the baby was an accident.

scottishmummy · 27/05/2012 10:48

was baby accident,what as in unwanted?
now that's judgmental
big time
so use of cm suggest accidental unplanned baby, does it
ridiculous

scottishmummy · 27/05/2012 11:01

redglow,"makes me wonder why some people bother having kids"
said in relation to a oer she's a bad un story,retold by a cm
that's a def why bother having them response from you

redglow · 27/05/2012 11:19

Can't really understand your post. Yes I am judgemental and so are you. You do nothing but judge and dig at childminders.

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