Just been Lectured to by one of my mindees parents! Need to rant

[saltire]

Sorry, this is a bit of rant but i need to get it out of my system. I have just had a lecture from one of my mindees parents about me using "loud and intimidating" voice tones whne talking to his dd!!!!!!

Apparently one of his wifes friends overheard me shouting at the mindee last week, and told the parents. Then later the same day, the mindees Gran had heard me shouting at her. Apparently they don't raise their voice to her because it s
"threatening" "Unco-opertive" "aggressive" etc etc.
Well i did shout at the child, twice, for the following reason

She is a child who goes around in a dream everything takes for ever with her, the 6 minute walk to school takes 20 minutes on the days i have her. Well, on the way to school, which is when the granny heard, we had crossed the road, and X had stopped, in the middle of the road, and was singing and dancing going lalalalalala. I got over the other side, and shouted "X, get off the road", no response, shes still going lalalalala.I had to adandon my 2 ds, double buggy and toddler on roadside and go back into middle of raod to get her.

On the way home from school, again with 2 ds, double buggy and toddler, the rain came on suddenly. We were all standing round in the rain like idiots whilst she's dancing round the trees in the playground, an still going lalalalala. I shouted at her to come on, she did eventually, but i had to aske her three times and then go and grab her hand. I told her that we had all got wet standing around waiting for her.

At this rate i'm the one whos going lala. The dad wasn't pepared to listen to what i had to say and told me that they left thier daughter with me and expected me to treat her the same as i would treat my own. Well if my two were standing in the middle of the road i would shout at them too.
I am really angry, but now i have written it all down i can calm down a bit now, and take deep breaths. Sorry for ranting, i just get so fed up with childminding sometimes

I literally cannot believe that any parent, particularly one who only has very small children, can maintain that it is possible to raise a child without ever having to shout; and imply that those (with older children) who do shout are doing something damaging and wrong. Time to quote the mumsnet philosophy?

saltire, you posted earlier "I know many of you on here think I'm an irresponsible childminder, who has lost control." You also said that your mindee said "my mummy and daddy say that if you talk to me in a threatning way again, they shall find another childminder".

Just have to say that I do not think either of those things about you, and that I am amazed that you haven't instantly terminated this child's minding arrangement with no notice. I think you have been very patient with her and with them, and that they have run out of rope.

Oh isnt internet wonderful. the range of opinions we express about childcare! We couldnt have done this years ago could we?

I think it just goes to show that when chosing a childminder you have to find a match and explore all these issues with each other and if you dont agree find an alternative. We're all different arent we.

There are endless threads containing frank and heated discussions of whether it is okay to smack children, or pierce their ears. I don't see why it's inappropriate to discuss whether or not it's okay to shout at them. I have a three year old and a 16mth old, and I do not shout at them. I hate hearing people bawl at their children. Calling them because they are too far away to hear me if I talk quietly is NOT the same as shouting at them, at all. And if any professional carer shouted at my children, I would be annoyed.

I apologise to Saltire for my remark about it being a poor standard of care. She's right, I don't know her and I shouldn't have said that.

But I don't retract my view that it is wrong to shout at a child in anger. I believe it is a form of violence.

oh goody goody

Don't have time now - wasted too much time at work already but I will be starting a thread tomorrow on violence/agression etc. and how we define it, is anger evil etc ...?This is a real bugbear of mine

Just need to find the right section for it now hmmm ...

I don't shout

but I do have a very SCARY voice that used on occasion

it's v. threatening

but not shouting

saltire, apologies if it seemed I was questioning your numbers, after checking with the care commision it seems I was told the wrong info when they registered me, it is as you say 3 under school age so age 4 can count if they have started school.

also this family would have driven me round the bend!I think you were extremely patient with them.

Wow, even though I'm not a shouter & I'm absolutely opposed to hitting of any description where children are concerned, I have to say I have shouted and i don't think it was "violent".
Sometimes my two are making such a racket - not necessarily doing anything naughty but just larking about that I have to shout to make myself heard. I'm not calling, I am shouting. I don't think I am being aggressive, I'm just trying to get their attention and make myself heard.
I have shouted the word "stop" more times than I care to remember. It would be daft to suggest I was calling the word "stop". I have to say, I would shout "get out of the road" to any child I saw in the road and I very much hope that, God forbid, someone saw my child in the middle of the road they would do the same. That is not agressive, it is assertive & necessary in a dangerous situation.

I agre, if it's not working with these parents for whatever reason, just put them on notice

Fine, Bugsy2. We disagree. I don't think that's a problem. But to be told it's against the mumsnet philosophy for me to be opposed to shouting at children is bizarre. I am opposed to it. And I'm very happy for people to disagree.

MP - she gave them written notice today.

MoM, no one said it was against Mumsnet philosophy to disagree. Someone suggested that by saying Saltire provided a poor level of childcare you were straying close to a "personal attack", which is against the Mumsnet philosophy. You've apologised for saying that, but we can still have the shouting debate!

Mom, you did say "In my house one of the boundaries is that we do not raise our voices in anger. It is a form of violence and is innecessary."

Violence?

Janh did actually imply that it was against the mumsnet philosophy for me to suggest that parents who shout are doing something damaging/wrong. But I believe they are!! I haven't requested a ban, like the "extremists" on the anti-smacking thread. But I do think it's wrong.

saltire I'm not a CM but from what I can see there is obviously a difference between you and the parents over how to "parent" this child.

As the parents, they may well be indulging the child and you as the CM do have to be firm on safety - hence the shouting.

If my child was stood in the middle of the road or playing out in the rain I would shout at him too.

But I can see why the parents might be uncomfortable about the fact that you have been seen shouting at the child, despite how unco-operative she is they probably feel that you have not warmed to her, and children are the thing that people are most defensive about. It strikes a real nerve if anyone is ever less than lovely to kids (BTW I'm not saying you are, just that that's how they may perceive things).

Sounds like the best thing is to end this arrangement.

Yes, I believe an adult shouting at a child in anger is a form of violence. One of the milder forms, admittedly. It may not be your view, but it is valid nonetheless.

Plenty of shouting in our house -- funny how a 6 yr old can be very hard of hearing until shouted at

Mom - can you explain why you think shouting/raising one's voice is a form of violence. Just curious that's all.

sorry i know this will cause a stink, but to suggest that saltire cannot cope is ludicrous, they were crossing the road and the child stopped while they were crossing, the child did not wander into the road because saltire wasn't paying enough attention!

speaking from experience, i always used to say that i would never shout at my child, then the magical age of 4 (approx) happened when my child suddenly decided he was a big boy and could do things for himself, like put on his own shoes, do up his coat, cross the road without holding hands/buggy and yes for the majority of the time he seemed perfectly able to do so, but on those days when they are just in one of those moods or daydreaming, every small task becomes impossible and then life is very difficult and sometimes the only way to get there attention when you really need it is to raise your voice.
i really think that this debate has gone too far though, saltire asked for freindly advice re the situation, and i'm sure certainly didn't expect to ahve her proffessional abilities criticised so heavily, as saltire has said she has looked after this child for quite some time and it has only recently been a problem!
on your behalf saltire, i am amazed that someone would think that it was ok to criticise someone so personally and tehn take offence to be questioned. yes it is a freespeaking site, but at the same time surely this is an issue of respect for someone else?

Because it involves projecting one's anger at another, smaller person in an forceful expression designed to frighten/subdue that person. Having been on the receiving end of a good deal of parental shouting and had ample opportunity to compare it to other forms of violence, I decided it was unnecessary and that I would find other ways of gaining my children's cooperation. I mean shouting at a child IN ANGER, not making one's voice louder in order to be heard above other noise/from a distance etc. There is a big difference IMO.

The little girl in all this sounds a bit precocious and possibly manipulative, by playing you off against her parents and perhaps not being entirely truthful with either ?! I'd expect my child to get told off if they were endangering themselves or others whilst in another's care. Did you tell them of the incident or did she ? As a parent I would not have liked hearing of this from my 4 yr old first even if you just considered it a minor transgression.

atm it seems as if the whole situation is less than ideal - may be you find her a handful anyway, perhaps she/parents would feel better in an environment with less divided attention - and if the contract is intended to be long term think about either working to an agreement over discipline with the parents or curtailing it. I really don't think the situation will resolve itself.

The cowardlycow post was me. I changed my name for another thread and forgot to change it back. I'm having a crap day.

Mom, I understand completely now why you feel as you do about shouting XXX

I did apologise for making it personal. And I meant it. I can't do much more than that.

Message withdrawn

Sorry missed the post about you having already issued notice. Well done !