why are people so against epidurals

[porcamiseria]

I am just curious, as the general vibe here (MN) and with the NCT and some midwifes is they are a bad thing.

I had one as was induced and literally could not cope with pain. I wont go into the whole story but its the usual ventouse, stitches etc. But baby was healthy and fine

My point is for me the epi was a godsend and the intense pains were not bearable.

If it happens again, I will have an epi if I can't cope. am due August, so its pertinent for me

It upsets me rather this attitude that they are to be avoided, as if you DO have one some people might feel like a failure?

What's wrong with seeing an epidural needle beforehand? I saw one before my CSection and was pleased to know and understand the procedure I was about to go through.

I also saw the scalpel as I was awake.

Violethill I know you meant this in a live and let live way:
"If other people want an epidural - fine. Their baby, their choice."

BUT this can cause offense and the sort of feelings of failure that people talk about

I didn't "choose" an epidural, It just got to a point for various reasons where "natural" was no longer a "choice" for me IYKWIM

what you said there suggests that everyone who has interventions COULD have had an intervention free birth but CHOOSE to do something that carries extra risk, which often is not the case at all

IMO if anyone is scared out of an epidural by the thought of a big scary needle, they cannot possibly have had anywhere near the pain levels I went through. I would have welcomed them putting it in with whatever they liked. I was shouting YES YES EPIDURAL RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW! Needle schmeedle.

I disagree.

I said that everyone has their own experience, and that I don't judge, and actually rarely see judging on MN.

Equally, I don't wish to be judged about feeling good about my natural birth.

It is not necessary to see the needle to make an informed choice

You do not need to see the needles and other instruments to give informed consent to other medical procedures.

It is done in a "LOOK AT THE HORRID INSTRUMENTS NASTY DOCTORS WANT TO DO STUFF TO YOU WITH" way by some NCT teachers

Well then I suggest you make a complaint if an NCT teacher waves an epidural needle around and talks about 'nasty doctors' and 'horrid instruments'. I have never come across an NCT teacher who did that. Did they really? Or is this just hyperbole?

My NCT teacher showed us various instruments - eg the 'hook' used to break waters in ARM - I found it empowering and enlightening to be treated as an adult capable of understanding the risks of various procedures.

I can kinda see both points with the showing of the needle thing. My NHS ante natal class involved passing round an epidural tube - but it was presented in an entirely neutral, informative way. Yes, someone who was squeamish about needles would have been put off, and no it wasn't strictly necessary for the MW to hand it round, but it did mean we walked away fully informed.

And actually, I think at that same class we watched a video of a woman giving birth who had had an epidural - the midwife took pains to point out that because of this she was 'in no pain at all'. It really does depend on presentation.

Showing it off in an 'ooh, isn't it enourmous' kinda way is deeply unprofessional though IMHO.

I did complain about her and AFAIK she is no longer teaching classes. But have come across many others with parallel NCT experiences. What I'm describing is not rare violethill so am surprized that you don't believe me.

Can you imagine if orthopaedic surgeons lugged up their big saws etc to the wards with their consent forms

I must have had a really crap NCT teacher, she told us all about baby's coming through pelvis' and then sat us all down for a cup of tea and cake.

NCT classes are not cheap.

I would have thought if people really felt they'd had a bad deal, they would be complaining, asking for refunds etc.

I do sometimes wonder whether there is transference here - maybe a woman's birth doesn't go as she'd have liked it to, and she then needs somewhere to 'put' her feelings? I just find it hard to believe all these unprofessional NCT teachers would still be in business if they were really that bad, and people found the classes so unhelpful.

Clearly you had a bad deal SalbySea, - but it was obviously something specific to that person and she's now no longer teaching.

I have never in any antenatal class, either NHS or NCT heard doctors being called 'nasty' by the teacher. Most of them would have the sense to realise it's totally unprofessional apart from anything else.

violethill I complained about her BEFORE i had my birth, which I do NOT feel bad about, I feel very positive about it as it happens (yes! even though it involved an epidural and a CS!!!!)

At the point when I complained about her (both to her face in class and to her superiors) I was still pregnant with my first and booked into a MLU

Please don't try to invalidate my opinions like that

I'm pretty ambivalent about epidurals, although obviously I think everyone has a right to ask for one if they really need one. I wish there were better, FREE, education about what labour might entail and what you can do to cope with it though, because I think some people have epidurals out of panic. I did, I think.

I had an epidural with DS - I was induced, and although I think it was quite a benign induction experience, I got to the point where I started to wonder if I could cope much longer, and the MW then said she thought DS had turned back-to-back (I don't know if this was the case).

First thing I did once it was in, was lie down and sleep for an hour! I stopped being active and sitting on my ball. I could have continued to do so - the MW was very supportive and in fact I could just about walk, so I think I could have sat up. So while I have no idea if the drugs themselves slowed things down (I suspect epidurals don't do this), my behaviour and expectations and motivation certainly changed.

I went from being very motivated to stay upright, partly because the pains were 'telling' me to do stuff, to being virtually a spectator at DS's birth. I felt very detached and only really came to when he landed on my chest. There were some decelerations that had the MW worried, but by then I was dozing and just presumed everything would be ok. I have no way of knowing if this was down to the epidural (my attitude, not the decelerations) but I suspect that after being very tired and in pain, I'd had that taken away from me and had sort of given up my autonomy to the HCPs. They'd taken away the pain - they could also do all the worrying, telling me when to push, etc.

I had two top-ups and had to push while completely numb. I couldn't feel anything more than pressure, although the obs (yes, I had one of those by then too) and the MW and DH were being very cheerleader-y and telling me when to push, etc. DS was born after an episiotomy and ventouse (although I still think he didn't need that, as he virtually shot out).

So on one side, I think epidurals are great, in the right context - I mean, I gave birth pain-free, DS was absolutely fine (apgar of 10 at birth), and my episiotomy worked out ok in the long run. (It might not have, though.) But I felt totally divorced from what was going on, until DS was born. Nobody pressurised me to have it, BUT I think I'd set myself up for having one because I was induced (for high BP - epidurals are at least a good way of lowering that!) and I'd told myself I would probably need one because an artificially started labour would be more painful than I could cope with. I don't know if it was my NCT classes that made me think like that, or just my natural catastrophising!

Next time I have a baby, I'm ideally going to be labouring at home, with an Independent Midwife and not using pain relief aside from G&A (which I had earlier on and got on well with). I won't opt for an epidural unless I really need one, rather than feeling intimidated by what was to come, rather than what was happening at that point.

Sorry, I rambled on for ages.

back to the OP, i had an epidural with DD1 and it was fab. i had one shot, a sleep, let the anaesthetic wear off and then pushed her out, no interventions, no stitches. The mw advised it, i needed it, right decision.

DD2 - just gas and air. i was fine. the crowning bit hurt a lot, but 3 pushes she was out, so that bit was faster.

i would honestly recommend seeing what the labour is like, seeing how you are and what the mw recommends.

and btw i did think my NCT teacher was way too anti-epidural. i was the only one of the 6 of us who had an epidural with the first birth and i was the one who had the least stressful time and no interventions or tearing.

violethill - re: the Emily Woof Guardian article - www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/mar/13/natural-childbirth-caesarean-emily-woof -

Why do you doubt she is not telling the truth about her own experiences? That she is using "poetic licence" and that it "makes good copy to exaggerate a bit?"

I read this article a little while back, and thought it was a brave and open article (and a rather sad one).

You have said on this thread several times that you do not expect to be judged for your birth choices and experience. I think you have dismissed someone else's experiences very unfairly with your comments. You may not like what she has to say, or find that it doesn't tally with your experiences or views - but to accuse her of lying is not an appropriate response.

As a guy there are only two meaningful priorities in childbirth: a healthy mother and a healthy baby. They are too easily taken for granted and it should not be forgotten that, even today, something like one in a thousand births ends in an empty nursery.

A healthy mother includes the psychological element. PTSD is not the ideal start to parenthood caused by extreme pain. Clearly the "ideal" (if there is such a thing) is a woman in full control of her pain, feeling empowered by the whole experience. However, I suspect that this outcome is as much determined by luck as preparation, pain threshold etc. Certainly, as in my wife's case, induction does not help!

There does seem to be a different attitude in France to epidurals. There, they are considered a natural part of the process (like pain relief for any other extreme pain) and people are regarded as somewhat odd for NOT having one. Personally, I do not care and just think everyone should make their own choice and not be judged over it. Starting a family is not a competitive sport after all.

The downside of epidurals (and I would love someone knowledgeable to confirm or deny this) is that, from my own (my wife's) and various friends' experiences, they do seem to lead to decelerations, which are both scary in themselves and can end up leading to C sections.

Interestingly, my wife would still like to experience a "natural" childbirth, so clearly there is something in the female psyche which feels this urge. For me, if we are lucky enough to have another child, the same old priorities will apply, and I would just be happy to drive my healthy wife and child number 2 home.

BTW, my own NCT antenatal teacher showed us an ARM hook and a scalp monitor, but not an epidural needle (I think she showed us the tube that gets taped to your back though). I hate to say this, given I'm very much in favour of the NCT and do a lot of volunteer work for them, but I do think she was trying to scare us with the instruments. It certainly worked - several of the women in my class looked rather green after that demo, and I refused a scalp monitor probably because I'd seen it close-up.

NCT classes - for labour and breastfeeding - are meant to offer you disinterested information, NOT advice or biased information. You are meant to be treated as the intelligent adults you are, and expected to make up your own minds. I think if anyone feels they were scared off a certain proceedure because of this sort of tactic, they ought to complain.

barkfox - because I'm not naive about newspaper articles. They want good copy. I'm not saying there's no truth in it - I'm saying that often things are exaggerated or have a spin put on them.

For the final time - I think it is up to each woman to look at the facts and make her own decisions as far as possible. Simple

Had epidurals many moons ago for both of mine. I don't do pain, they were marvelous. I have never understood this idea that the pain of childbirth is "good pain". IMHO no pain is good pain and if modern medicine can alleviate it, I will take all that modern medicine has to offer.

violethill -

Emily Woof is not a journalist. She was writing her own piece, in her own voice, about her own experiences of birth. You have no grounds for assuming anything has been 'exaggerated' or had a 'spin' put on them.

As I say, you may not like what she has written, and you may even wish she hadn't. But you have no right to dismiss her as a liar.

larrygrylls - I completely agree with your point:

'my wife would still like to experience a "natural" childbirth, so clearly there is something in the female psyche which feels this urge. '

I think that's true of a lot of women. When people say 'But you wouldn't have a tooth out without anaesthetic' I always think they're entirely missing the point. No, you wouldn't. Neither would you agree to having your leg amputated in your own home, or your appendix out at your local surgery. So clearly there is something different about giving birth, which makes a lot of women feel that they don't automatically assume it has to be medicalised.

My hunch is that it's a mixture of reasons. First, having a baby isn't fixing anything that's gone wrong, it's not an illness, which sets it apart from things like toothache, or appendicitis. Secondly, it's about another life, as well as the mother's, which I think creates a different perspective on how you view it. And lastly, there's something difficult to define. I liken it to running a marathon. You push your body to its limits, and it's very painful, but somehow exhilarating.

None of this is in any way judgemental (god, I feel I have to add that as a disclaimer to very post now!!) but just responding to the point you made.

violethill, I think the point MumNWLondon was making earlier, and I stated earlier, is that the NCT was founded as the Natural Childbirth Trust, not the National Childbirth Trust. That was its original stance.

Poetic licence and exaggeration?

So which bits are made up then?

She wasn't really heamorhagging and close to death?

She wasn't in labour for 36 hours?

Her first son didn't have the cord round his neck?

C'mon, what's she exaggerating about? I think you need to have a little look at your ability to empathise violethill.

One of the things that really compounded my traumatic birth experience was then talking to people who belittled and undermined it and acted as though it didn't really happen or wasn't that bad.

Why are some women obsessed with doing this?

I didn't realise that!

And I attended classes, and was a very active member for a while!

But actually, that reinforces the concept that the rationale behind it is to promote natural childbirth. Maybe people are barking up the wrong tree then, if they are paying to attend classes which have a very heavy focus on natural childbirth, if they want something different?

(To oosa)