why are people so against epidurals

[porcamiseria]

I am just curious, as the general vibe here (MN) and with the NCT and some midwifes is they are a bad thing.

I had one as was induced and literally could not cope with pain. I wont go into the whole story but its the usual ventouse, stitches etc. But baby was healthy and fine

My point is for me the epi was a godsend and the intense pains were not bearable.

If it happens again, I will have an epi if I can't cope. am due August, so its pertinent for me

It upsets me rather this attitude that they are to be avoided, as if you DO have one some people might feel like a failure?

I have no strong feelings one way or another!

I was induced with all 3 of my DCs, the last 2 with Syntocin. I was told that 'everyone has an epi when they have syntocin'. The reason i was against was with dd1 all i did was walk, walk, walk, until i got in the pool. It's what worked for me. I had a row with my mw with dd2 as she wanted me on the bed for monitoring the whole time. I got my way. When i had ds1 i had a very easy going midwife who let me lead my own labour and birth. It was fabulous. I'm fine with other women having them, they're just not for me.

With you on the crowning though, that was agony!

'The Madonna didn't have an epidural' is a fecking stupid reason to suggest for not having one!

A reasoned analysis of the risk factors isn't though.

Oh, I've just remembered that our NCT teacher was also a community m/w so she had the judging covered from both angles in the OP.

My 'natural' birth (DC2) was so fast and furious it was scary.

So with DC3 I asked for an epidural early. Yes it probably did slow things down - seven hours compared to three the time before. But it was great. Mellow, controlled, I sat on bouncy ball throughout, no intervention, no pain as I crowned, no stitches. The whole thing has a rosy glow in my memory.

I would far rather have a slightly longer, more controlled, pain-free labour than a few hours of agony and panic. That panic stayed with me. I got slight PND that time round and I'm sure it was partly trauma from the birth.

BUT... I am now due with DC4 and keep finding myself thinking, 'hmm, should I try to do it naturally this time'? And I know the only reason is that stiff upper lip/earth-mother type pressure. I resent being made to feel self-conscious/guilty! (Actually if I didn't ever log onto Mumsnet maybe I wouldn't... no-one I know in real life could give a toss.)

Jesus, I certainly wouldn't want my MW to be openly against epis.

I honestly have to stand to one side in this debate, as I can never have a 'normal' birth with the 'normal' range of options. I think that, if I could I would avoid having an epi only as long as I was not in undue discomfort - as long as I could manage the pain without being in distress. I do have a pretty high pain threshold usually, so would hope that a birthing pool/G&A would be sufficient. However, that's out of my hands.

I guess the only stand I can make is that people shouldn't portray them as 'bad' across the board - which some people do. Yes, they have pros and cons, but the negative aspects are often outweighed by individual circumstances, which seems to be the one thing that indiscriminate epidural-bashers forget. At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to make their own choice, and when health professionals like the ones mentioned on this thread start toting blanket opinions, that is plain wrong. They should have the education to know that for some people it really is the best option.

If the drugs are available (and safe!), bring 'em on!

My NCT antenatal teacher just labeled epidurals as something evil NHS doctors and nurses try to do to you to make THEIR lives easier, and only told us about the risks, didn't talk about any of the situations where an epidural might be appropriate. The general gist was if you have one you are selfish and don't care if your baby suffers.

I want to avoid an epidural because they slow labour down which in my case could mean an emcs. I will hopefully be having a vbac and the clock will be ticking against me as the trial of labour will be for a maximum of 8-10 hours.

When I had my c-section once the epidural was inserted I couldn't feel a thing and the Anaethetist started throwing my legs around for a joke, there is no way my body would know how to give birth with that lack of sensation. My sil had an epidural and ended up with a awful tear because she couldn't push effectively. 11 years on and she still has incontinence issues.

Other people have said that they benefited from them, they have said that they felt more in control once the pain levels were more manageable.

thedollshouse - my goodness, that is so unprofessional! Also, I can't believe the anaethetist stuck around that long - mine was gone like a shot. still I guess if you're having a c-section it is more important to make sure of things.

Salbysea - did the NCT "information" prevent you from having one? If so, do you regret it?

I had an epidural with DS and ended up needing an emergency c due to decelerations. It was an induced labour and by the time I had had an amniotomy (which was not successfully managed) I was really unable to cope with the pain and was incredibly grateful for my epidural.

I have no idea how anyone could get through that kind of pain without an epidural and therefore I am in support of epidurals. However, in saying that as soon as th anaesthetist managed to get the bloody thing in (another faff of about 40 mins) I was coping better with the pain again which I think does show that some of it was psychological.

I do actually also think a labour that is continuously monitored (as mine ended up being) is by definition going to be more stressful and therefore more painful.

"they slow labour down"

Or, as in my case, speed it up.

TottWriter C section spinal is hardcore compared with epidural (I think!). Also the anaesthetist stayed with me the whole time until I was moved to recovery. I think that's standard for any operation.

thedollshouse you have the same reason as me for wanting to avoid an epi next time. I want to make sure I don't slow things down - and make sure I FEEL anything untoward!

I'm an anaesthetist. I've put in hundreds of epidurals. Epidurals are associated with longer labours/assisted deliveries but that doesn't mean they cause them. Very few women come in wanting an epidural immediately, they tend to choose them when things get too much as a last ditch choice. So the women with the more painful/difficult/complex labours are also those more likely to choose an epidural, with good reason, but it didn't necessarily make any difference to what would have happened anyway. When epidurals for labour first came out we used some fairly heavy duty pain killers in them making for really numb legs and reduced feeling about when to push, this happens much less now with the lower strength drugs.

Epidurals aren't perfect. They have side effects and problems. But to condemn the choice is madness. They are the ONLY medication given in labour that has been proven to provide pain relief. Gas and air and diamorphine make you feel relaxed and out of it, and if it works for you then fine. But it is the choice of each woman to make, without being made to feel they have done anything other than make a very rational decision.

I'm 32 weeks pg and though I won't go in demanding an epidural until I've experienced what labour feels like, I definately would go ahead if and when getting to the not coping stage.

Managing to give birth, however you do it, is a massive achievement. Who cares if you did it drug free or with everything but the kitchen sink. Doesn't make you a better parent either way.

TottWriter - I think he was trying to make me laugh so I wouldn't cry. It was weird I thought they were fake legs at first. . The anaethethetist stays with you for the whole op when you are having a c-section.

Useful post Harri

It also explains why a good understanding of the 'heirarchy' of pain relief can really help.

My NCT classes were brilliant for that. Everything from rotating on a birthing ball, to aromatherapy to water. The further you can get through without invasive pain relief, the nearer you are to that birth. If a woman wants an epidural then that's her choice, but best to go into it knowing all the facts so you can weigh it up for yourself.

Years ago, long before I was even thinking of having children, I saw an epidural needle. I nearly fainted at the sight of it!

With that in mind, once pregnant, I was quite keen to avoid having an epidural although not completely closed to the idea. In the end both my labours were too short for them to be an option.

My experiences of MW 'recomending' epidurals are very different to a lot of you. One of the MW I spoke to was so keen on them that I'm sure she was on some sort of commission.

Epidurals are associated with longer labours/assisted deliveries but that doesn't mean they cause them

I understand what you're saying with regards to those most likely to request them will have been in labour longer, but genuine question most midwifes I have come across are of the opinion that an anaesthetic, which is what an epidural is interferes with the natural process of the muscles contracting which in turn slows down labour. If there's nothing to push against both the uterus and the baby will tired and become less effective surely ?

Did anyone see that Emily Woof article in Guardian family - there must have been a thread about it... here

Her NCT classes featured this - "The teacher took my husband to one side. "Make sure she sticks to her plan," she told him. "When she's screaming for drugs, it's not what she really wants, it's what they want."

I don't think this attitude is isolated, I think it's often found in the NCT. That horrified me because I needed my epidurals - imagine if the pain was far worse than you'd anticipated and you begged for help and your DH felt he had to try to stop you.

TottWriter no it didn't put ME off (because I disagreed with her), but someone else from her class was so terrified of interventions that she and her DH refused to consent to anything even when she NEEDED them until things had gotten further than they should have and the baby did end up with problems because of it.

I had an epidural after about 12 hrs back to back and OP position. I couldn't cope with the pain any more, I would have jumped out a window to make it stop! My blood pressure was through the roof and the baby's heart rate was dipping but I was writhing too much to be monitored properly. I NEEDED my blood pressure drop (family history of haemhorrage). I later a CS (not because of the epidural, afterwards the surgeon said that there was no way he could of come out any other way). My baby was absolutely fine and to ME that's the main thing, not where he came out of or what 'helped' me have him

All medicine has side effects. That doesn't mean that it cant be the better safer option sometimes.

Do you think that's true though? Or just poetic licence? Makes good copy to exaggerate a bit.

Ok, some women clearly do feel pressurised into having a natural birth, but I think the general view (and certainly on MN) is live and let live. Most women I know (me included) didn't opt for natural births because we're militant tree hugging lentil weavers. We don't enjoy the pain! We just feel that on balance, we would prefer to give birth if possible in the least medicalised way. That's a valid point of view, and shouldn't be underestimated.

If other people want an epidural - fine. Their baby, their choice.

(That was re: the Emily Woof article)

Can I also say that I think its outrageous that some NCT teachers bring in epidural needles to showhowbigandscaryitis make sure 'their ladies' are fully informed

you can be fully informed by your surgeon about an operation without him showing you the scalpel he will cut you with!!

thedollshoue - so long as that's why he did it! Sorry, I just had visions of him buggering about with your legs and chuckling to himself or something. Also, yes it does obviously make sense that during an operation the anaethetist would be there - blame my daft old pregnancy head for not seeing that one straight away!

MillyMollyMoo - the epidural I had certainly didn't interfere much with my contractions (though okay, yes, I was induced, so can't judge without bias.) Either way, I could still feel my stomach contracting, and I still had that 'urge to push' which the books all told me the epidural would take away. I don't know whether that was because mine went wrong in some way or whether that's a balance they do try and achieve more regularly, but I certainly don't think it slowed things down in my case. In fact, when it came to the pushing part, everyone was surprised at how quickly my DS came out.

Most midwives are excellent at delivering babies. Most of them know diddly-squat about epidurals, sorry. Following insertion and first dose of an epidural you often get a momentary slow down, a break in contractions for about 2-3 mins more than they were. No-one really knows why. The contractions then start up again just as well as before, I've watched it a hundred times on CTGs. There is no evidence at all for what you midwives are telling you MillyMollyMoo, though there is none that they're wrong either. To get a definitve answer we'd have to randomise women in labour to have or not have an epidural, and I can't see anyone going for that at the time!

Epidurals work on the nerves from your back to stop pain, but not directly on the muscles of your womb. I've seen the great deliveries when women have babies without any pain relief, and the great ones where the epidural works brilliantly and they can really enjoy the experience of witnessing their baby come into the world. Women feel pain differently and each labour is unique.

Yes I have the TENS, hypnotherapy and birth pool lined up, but an epidural is my security blanket and I'd have no hesitation if I felt I needed one.