why are people so against epidurals

[porcamiseria]

I am just curious, as the general vibe here (MN) and with the NCT and some midwifes is they are a bad thing.

I had one as was induced and literally could not cope with pain. I wont go into the whole story but its the usual ventouse, stitches etc. But baby was healthy and fine

My point is for me the epi was a godsend and the intense pains were not bearable.

If it happens again, I will have an epi if I can't cope. am due August, so its pertinent for me

It upsets me rather this attitude that they are to be avoided, as if you DO have one some people might feel like a failure?

PRobably shouldn't restart this thread but what the heck.

When I had DS, I was induced at 42weeks - 3 pessaries, next to no dilation but contractions were increasing in intensity. I am a bit pathetic with pain and go semi-hysterical, don't really know what I'm doing or saying and was just begging for something to take away the pain, anything, I didn't care what, shooting me would have done.
They called the anaesthetist to talk to me and he told me that if I had an epidural the risk of further intervention (ventouse, forceps, CS etc.) would increase and could I see if I could manage without it - I was pretty dazed anyway but agreed to try. They gave me a shot of anti-sickness drug and a shot of pethidine to see if it helped - afaik the pethidine made sod-all difference but it might have stopped it getting even worse, who knows.

Anyway - halfway through the 4 hours I was being left to see if I dilated beyond 1cm, before they started the syntocin, I hit stage 2 labour and half an hour later DS was born, nearly without MWs as I was in the (Ha!) observation ward and there were several emergencies going on. DH fetched one just in time - DS was born 3mins later.

I am glad I didn't get the epidural in the end as I too have a massive fear of fuck-off big needles being shoved into my spinal cord - but I was so hazed out with the pain and sickness that if they had said yes when I asked for one, I would have had it.

In the end, for first-timers anyway, you don't know what you can stand until you get there so I don't think it's a good idea to have hard-and-fast rules about it - but also sometimes what you think you can't stand, you actually can. Sometimes you can't, fair enough and I would never take away the choice for people.

But birth is nothing like getting your teeth pulled or your tonsils out. Birth is not a medical condition or emergency but a natural occurrence in the life a woman who is pregnant. I think the biggest reason why women opt out of having an epidural isn't to be a hero or a braggart...but because they believe that the body was made to handle childbirth, that all the hormones and chemical reactions that are released and take place during a natural birth, facilitate in having a wonderful birthing experience. It's fairly obvious that if a drug is injected into mother, it is also going to effect baby. There are incidences where baby and mother are groggy, which disrupts the natural flow of oxytocin (love hormone), which bonds baby and mother together and gives a very euphoric feeling. I think the biggest reason people are "against" epidurals is yes, for the snowball effect but also because giving birth is work, it's pain but it's not an EMERGENCY. It's a part of life that never had interventions before and was completely natural. I don't think that has anything to do with being an "earth mother", "tree hugger" or a "hippie"...I think it just has to do with letting your body do what it KNOWS HOW to do, while all those chemicals are working in your favorincluding ENDORPHINSthat naturally help a woman cope with pain. Just saying, birth is not like teeth being pulled or getting your tonsils out. Birth is pain with a purpose that stops as soon as baby is out.

The body is designed to handle a great many kind of ordeals... The ability to fight off a cold or infection, to kill a virus by raising body temperature ( fever), and it even knows how to cope with death. Yet somehow, perhaps because you don't get something wonderful at the back end of it ( or maybe because men suffer from these conditions too), it is considered acceptable to offer pain relief in THOSE circumstances.

I was with my sister during her first birth. She had an epidural and she had, from where I was sitting at least, a wonderful birth. Quick delivery, no intervention, no episiotemy, no screaming.... Just a relaxed calm birth. And baby was not groggy in the slightest. ( I think Angelique has her facts a bit backwards as grogginess is associated with other drugs, not epis ). Her second (drug free) birth was horrific ("I literally thought I was going to die"), and then she has a pleasant third birth with an epi.

My grandmother had six children, all with an epidural with no problems. My step mother has 3 with epis, again zero problems.

My mother had me and sis without drugs, and MIL had DH naturally as well, and both say "don't try to be a martyr, it isn't worth it"

I don't know if it's a British thing, or just a fad, but I don't get why there is so much misinformation about epidurals in this country leading to fear.

THUMBWICH!

I was warned an epidural could make feeling to push more difficult and thus increase the likelihood of intervention in my NHS antenatal class but we were told to have one if we needed it.

We were also warned that we would need to be catheterised if we had one and that it might take a while before we could get up and move around.

In labour I was offered it a couple of times, the last time was at 9cm as they said that it would be more difficult to put one in if I asked after that. I weighed the options and decided I could do without. I was grateful to be asked and knew if I'd said I wanted it it would have been there ASAP.

TBH I was scared of having a needle in my spine and think people who have one are brave!

I asked for an epidural and mw said it would make the baby sleepy and was a bad idea - I argued she was talking nonsense and I had done my research, dh asked for a more senior person to speak to me about pain relief (as basically we didn't believe anything she said - she was senior mw!), registrar came in and was happy for me to have an epi so long as I was far enough along. MW admitted she hadn't checked if I was dilating as I hadn't been in long so there was plenty of time. Registrar was not happy with her, especially as I turned out to be 10cm and ready to push. I wasn't even in the delivery room.

My complete lack of trust of mws led me to see a consultant before ttc #2 and get him to agree to a cs - if they'd listened to my request and at least tried to get me an epi I am sure I wouldn't feel like this!

Every person's labour is unique to them and everyone has their own level of pain tolerance.

I had epidurals for both my labours, the first after 24 hours of back to back labour and still only 4 cm, it allowed me to sleep and turned me from a screaming wreck into a sane adult who was then able to concentrate. Yes this probably did lead to the cascade of intervention ending in forceps delivery, however it was what I needed at the time.

Second time round I requested an epidural which was fantastic - could still move legs and feel need to push and even felt the head crowning and shoulders being delivered with no pain, no episiotomy, tears or intervention.

I am fairly new to Mumsnet, and was interested to read the experiences of others with some NCT classes. All methods of analgesia available were discussed at my classes, however the insinuation and tone of discussion around epidurals and c sections was fairly negative. Several of the people in my group ended up with c sections, insturmental deliveries etc and felt failures because of what had been taught / discussed. I think there are ways of putting the information out there without making people feel failures if they don't deliver naturally with no analgesia. only you can decide how good/bad the pain is and what you want to do about it

I think epidurals are a brilliant answer to the hideousness of so many hospital births.

If you hamper women's ability to cope with labour by giving them drugs which make their contractions more painful, surrounding them with strangers, hampering their mobility by continuously monitoring them and catheterising them - well, you've got to give them something in return, and epidurals are it.

The other answer to labour being shit and difficult might be to have your baby at home, do hypnobirthing, have a doula, get an independent midwife, have a waterbirth. But alot of people are too scared/without medical support/ sceptical/tight-fisted/genuinely poor, to opt for any of this.

Personally I didn't want an epidural and was prepared to go through a very, very long labour without one MAINLY because I wanted to experience the first two days of my life with my babies with physiologically normal mothering hormones, and also to get the hormonal high which goes with an unmedicated labour. (don't let anyone say there are no medals for going without pain relief. There are! Namely, a hormonal high of mega-proportions.... wouldn't have wanted to have gone to my grave without having experienced mother nature's postnatal gift.........)

'(don't let anyone say there are no medals for going without pain relief. There are! Namely, a hormonal high of mega-proportions.... wouldn't have wanted to have gone to my grave without having experienced mother nature's postnatal gift.........)'

I had a drug-free, all 'natural' delivery with my second. Guess what Mother Nature gave me in the way of a hormonal postnatal gift?

Post-natal depression.

So this whole idea that going drug-free = postpartum bliss is, well, bollocks.

expat - its not 'bollocks' just because YOU didn't experience it.

That's like claiming orgasms don't exist because youve never had one.

On the other hand, universalising your own, subjective experience to claim it as a general truth is also bollocks.

And all this talk of 'medals'... competitive birth is such a stupid, stupid, damaging concept. There really are no medals for working that one out.

'That's like claiming orgasms don't exist because youve never had one.'

I never said that. I implied you cannot universalise post-partum experiences based on mode of birth.

Plenty of people on this board have experienced that hormonal rush after CS, that's because it's related to pregnancy and birth, not mode of birth.

"Plenty of people on this board have experienced that hormonal rush after CS, that's because it's related to pregnancy and birth, not mode of birth."

Yes - the huge rush of oxytocin you may experience immediately after birth comes from holding your baby in your arms and against your skin.

But it also comes from the pressure of your baby's head against the cervix, and the stretching out of your vagina as you push your baby out (in an unmedicated birth).

Things that can interfere with the production of oxytocin:

-high levels of adrenaline (maybe if experiencing extreme fear during labour)
-syntocinon

So yes - a mother having an unmedicated labour where she's extremely stressed and traumatised may also result in a reduction in normal mothering hormones during and after birth.

Hugely high levels of endorphins experienced in the immediate aftermath of an unmedicated birth come from your body's response to the pain of the contractions. You simply don't produce endorphins in the same way if your birth is medicated.

From Wikipedia:

"Endorphins are proteins that are similar to opioids. They are made by the endocrine system of many vertebrates. When they are released into the body, they cause a sense of well-being. "

So women who have had very long unmedicated labours may have extremely high levels of this 'feel good' hormone in their body immediately following birth.

"And all this talk of 'medals'... competitive birth is such a stupid, stupid, damaging concept. There really are no medals for working that one out."

I was thinking of 'medal' as 'reward'. Got nothing to do with competing with anyone else.

"On the other hand, universalising your own, subjective experience to claim it as a general truth is also bollocks.

I do think it helps make a bit more sense of the debates surrounding birth choices when you know a little about the possible impact of hormones in pregnancy and around the time of birth. All women produce oxytocin and endorphins, and these hormones in one way or another will impact on how you feel, whether you are conscious of it or not.

"I don't get why there is so much misinformation about epidurals in this country leading to fear."

No - it's wrong that women should be told crap about epidurals. They should be given advice based on the best and most up to date evidence.

However at the moment this evidence points to very high levels of association between epidurals and assisted birth in first time mothers.

Midwives need to tell mothers this. But they could also tell mothers that most women who have an epidural are overwhelmingly positive about it. That might stop this information from coming across as being judgemental in any way.

[have to say, my thoughts on this are that women tend to be very positive about their birth choices whatever they are, as long as the outcome is good. So homebirth, waterbirth, birth with a doula, elective c/s, birth with an epidural etc all tend to get a big 'thumbs up' . Women tend to take what they need from what's available to them to cope with the situation they find themselves in in labour]

I agree with your comments above spudulika re information about epidurals and the like.
I think you are right to an extent about women being positive about their birth choices if the outcome is good. Coming from a healthcare professional background working at the other end of life, good honest communication and explanationis paramount. What would probably improve the situation / part of the cause for those in which the outcome of labour is not so good (whereby I mean tears / em C section / instrumental delivery) is good communication by the healthcare professionals between themselves as a team, so conflicting advice is not given / patient feeling piggy in middle between Drs and Midwives, and indeed between themselves and the mothers / birth partners.

expat - its not 'bollocks' just because YOU didn't experience it.

That's like claiming orgasms don't exist because youve never had one.

It is complete and utter bollocks to claim that everyone who gives birth a certain way will experience the same thing, which is what you did.

And you post the same thing over and over again.

That's because the same debates spring up over and over again. Can't leave it all to the cynics and the doom-mongers to keep banging the same old drum unchallenged can I? [winks]

for my first, I was induced by drip (meconium in the waters) and no-one mentioned it might be a good idea to have some pain relief, which in hindsight, really suprises me. I'd been to NCT classes and was desperate to avoid forceps/cs so didn't ask for pain relief and thought I would be fine.

So I was very quickly put into established labour (my contractions had started after the waters broke and I arrived at hospital 1cm dilated). After about three hours of agony I was given some paracetemol, which I promptly threw up and after 7 hours of no further dilation, a midwife gently suggested I might like to consider an epidural. I would very much have liked that sort of suggestion much earlier on! I dilated fully within about 15 minutes of mobile epi taking affect and my daughter was born about 15 minutes later. The induction was awful before the pain relief - only consolation is that I actually can't remember the last 4 hours before the epi went in, though my dh is still quite traumatised by it.

I'm now 33 weeks with my second and as much as I will try to avoid an epidural to avoid any escalation in intervention, the reality of my induction experience was that I started off with so much intervention, an earlier epidural would have made the experience more bearable. I was also very pleased to have had a mobile epidural - I could feel the contractions, though they were much less painful so knew when to puch and I was able to walk 20 minutes after stitches were finished.

I was desperate to avoid an epidural in my first birth not because I'm a big believer in natural birth - I'm not - but because I was scared of some of the (admittedly rare) side-effects eg. the headache and a numbness in the legs that never goes away / takes ages to go away (experienced by a friend of mine). Have these ever happened to anyone on here?

Also, people say 'an epidural means being catheterized' as though this is a universal truth. I have had four epidurals and never a catheter.

Also no sideeffects.

I like to feel in control. Had to have a spinal block with Ds after a long labour and him getting stuck high up...I hated it. With Dd labour and birth was without assistance and I'd go for the same every time if I was lucky enough to have more babies.

Ooh, interesting. I like to feel in control too. That's why I want to keep pain levels down, so I can be rational, listen when it's time to pant etc. The one time I really felt the pain of pushing/crowning (epidural didn't work, fast labour) I was completely out of control, crying out, and hated it. Also got post natal depression. Since then I've had two epidurals which DID work :)

I've given birth twice without an epidural, including one natural hippy home birth, all done in two hours, no stitches.

If asked, I recommend people have an epidural. I wish I'd had one. I can't see the point of going through all that pain.