why are people so against epidurals

[porcamiseria]

I am just curious, as the general vibe here (MN) and with the NCT and some midwifes is they are a bad thing.

I had one as was induced and literally could not cope with pain. I wont go into the whole story but its the usual ventouse, stitches etc. But baby was healthy and fine

My point is for me the epi was a godsend and the intense pains were not bearable.

If it happens again, I will have an epi if I can't cope. am due August, so its pertinent for me

It upsets me rather this attitude that they are to be avoided, as if you DO have one some people might feel like a failure?

Whether or not home births are are more risky than hospital births is, I imagine, hugely difficult to prove or disprove, because of all the variables - for a start you are comparing 'low risk mothers eligible for home birth' with 'mothers at varying degrees of risk'.

You are not comparing like with like.

However, re: epidurals, there is evidence that with following a straightforward pregnancy, where vaginal birth is judged to be the safer option, a birth without epidural presents the lowest risk of forceps/ventouse/interventions for mother and baby.

That's the bottom line. The majority of pregnancies and births are medically straightforward. The majority of births don't need medical intervention. Whether the mother chooses to accept interventions is an entirely different issue, and in some cases the woman decides, on balance, intervention is the right thing for her.

iamwhatiam - I have to say I have never heard that masochistic view before! Weird!

iamwhat...etc - I'm totally with you. Those whoe genuinely choose not to have an epidural because of the risks (perceived or otherwise) are making entirely fair and reasonable decisions - but then, those are probably not the people who feel the need to persuade others to make the same choice.

The vast majority of the preachers are, I suspect, True Believers in the "maximum nature = best mother" doctrine, and use the convenient fact that epidurals carry risks as a rationalisation after the fact - which actually cheapens those who genuinely made the decision based on their assessment of the risks, rather than some perverted ideology of what a Real Woman is.

Whoops - "who".

Violethill, then in that case you are very lucky!

Gibran - you have hit the nail on the head. I too would never have a HB but I would never advise anyone not to have one (and it should be said, to friends had v gd HB experiences). And yet so often those anti-epidural/surgical birth will preach. Or 'just giving you the facts' (picked out of whichever journal happens to support my point of view). The truth is that there is no evidence that mothers or babies are more damaged in countries where epidurals are the norm (maternal and infant mortality is lower in France and Belgium, not only than here but also that bastion of HBs (and tall women) Holland). But the truth is, fundamentally,that childbirth is very safe, statistically speaking, in most developed countries - far far safer than in those countries where you aint going to get pain relief or for that matter any doctor should anything go wrong. Sniping at each other about our choices is therefore simply that in most cases - sniping. So why on earth do some women do it? And why is it such a British thing, this obsession with how one 'did' childbirth? Are we unable to enjoy the resulting children, or our cultural, physical and sexual lives once we've had them? Why do we need a national natural childbirth charity to (it would appear) lecture us? Or put up with the male head of the royal college of MWs telling us to feel the pain? All very depressing.

sorry two friends had great HBs!

Where is this 'perverted ideology' coming from?! I do wonder about some of the people you lot are mixing with!

Why is it so difficult to accept that most women who go for natural births have simply weighed up the risks and made their choice?

Is it perhaps easier to think that they must be freaky followers of some weird cult?

Honestly, no! I don't like extreme pain. I think it's got bog all to do with being a 'Real Woman' (as opposed to....an Unreal Woman?!)

I did think 'Wow' when I got the hormone rush following my natural births, but that was a by product, I wasn't expecting it. I just felt that, as my first and third pregnancies were normal, I wanted to give birth in a nice homely environment, where I could move around where and when I wanted, and give myself the best chance of avoiding invasive procedures. Doesn't seem at all fanatical to me - just what a lot of women want.

Violethill I said that most of the people on this thread were exactly in the camp of weighing up the risks and making an informed choice! Play fair!

I think I made the decision not to have one second time around because a) I really didn't fancy someone sticking a needle in my spine, esp after a lumbar puncture I had as a teenager, and I thought I'd rather hack the pain and b) after the first experience of birth and the living hell that was the post-natal ward, I wanted to be able to leave as soon as possible as long as the baby was fine - and I knew you had to stay in if you had an epidural.

(first time around there was no one there to offer it and the pain was bearable with gas and air)

Really was as simple as that. I think I was keen not to have interventions that have an affect on the baby - pethidine, c section etc and subsequent breastfeeding which I really wanted to be able to do for my children (ideal world of course - my birth plans always said "as long as it's not an emergency" - then you do whatever to make sure the baby survives, of course).

Virtually everyone I know who disn't have a c section had an epidural. Do I feel superior/better than them? - it's an interesting question? And has made me think about it. Honestly, I don't think it does. I certainly don't think it makes me a better mother! What has it got to do with how I / they parent now?

I do, however, think I am a bit more hardcore than them (joke!)

violethill - a couple of points:

• Not sure if this is what you were saying, but I doubt anyone would label themselves as masochistic - it's just that there is, for some reason, a badge of pride worn by some that relates to how much they suffered for their child, even if they rarely say it in as many words. You must surely have met people like this...?

• On the home birth stuff, I really regret choosing this as an example of what I (this thread excepted!) choose not to preach - I should have foreseen that in defending my statement I'd end up having to, effectively, preach my belief like the hypocrite I was trying not to be! That said: I agree that it is hugely complex - I wasn't really trying to compare home-births with epidurals in any substantive way, but since you challenge this I will say that I still think it is possible to weigh up their relative associated risks and say that one is more risky than the other, even though the risks differ in nature - as human beings we make such relative risk assessments all the time. For example, most people, if asked, would probably say that mainlining heroin is more risky than playing bowls, even though the nature of the relative risk is so wildly different. As for home births being more risky than hospital births, again I agree that the complexity makes this incredibly difficult to assess, which is why there has been no conclusive study (even if the weight of evidence tips the balance in favour of home-births having more associated risks) - on a point of detail, the Professor I cited was apparently including low-risk home-births in his assessment.

Fabhead - I think that kind of joke is what gets people's backs up. Who's to say if you'd had to experience your friend's labour you wouldn't have had an epidural?

And then I see the other side of that and why people get pissed off when they get told that they only managed it naturally because they were lucky and didn't happen to be in as much pain.

So, I can see both side of why people get touchy about this kind of thing. Personally, I keep my mouth shut in RL about birth experiences - except to say well done, however it's done!

Somewhere we are socially conditioned (some of us) to think that having an epidural is cheating, as I feel that I cheated. However I justify this to myself with "but she was back to back", "my labour had been long", "I needed some sleep". Its just interesting that I feel the need to justify it at all.

Gibran - just to clarify - I am not personally pro-home birth (although totally respect anyone who wishes to have one). I wasn't really making that comparison.

I was just making the point that if you take away the place of birth (home/hospital or MLU or tent in a field!!) then given a straightforward pregnancy without complications, there is evidence that there are least risks of intervention if the woman goes without epidural. That's all.

Sorry, vioethill, one more, if I may (and I guess even if I mayn't): FTAOD, I fully respect those who opt for natural child-birth. I just don't like those who preach that others should too, and that those who don't are somehow lesser beings. And yes, there are lots about (as someone who made choices in accordance with their own you're probably less sensitive to their numbers and preachy ways, as they'd have no reason to preach at you, even if you are not a preacher yourself).

Gibran Why don't YOU provide the evidence, research and sources for why you think their is a weight of evidence showing it to have higher associated risks, since it was actually YOU that first compared the two in these terms.

And 'coz my mate's mate said so' isn't really evidence.

As for your DH having attended problematic homebirths (why? ), doesn't that colour his judgement of their safety rather?

but 'it' I mean homebirths - of course.

Do people really try and tell their friends and relatives what they should do in pregnacny or childbirth? I am astounded. The only people who have ever tried to pressurise me to do anything or try and make me feel bad about any of my choices are doctors. Even then, you respect that they have a professional opinion/experience and an agenda in terms of resourcing, take it on board and disregard as necessary. I would never tell anyone that I didn't agree with their childbirth choices - I know what a nightmare it can be and you often get little time to think.

I don't see what's wrong with me joking that I feel that I have a strong pain threshold - I do think I do. Generally I am that kind of person. I am the kind of person who just likes to grit teeth, hunker down, and get things done on my own without people interfering. Eg I run marathons but am crap at team sports. I don't think that makes me better than anyone though - just different type of personality. Many of my friends would say I make life unecessarily difficult for myself by refusing to accept help - and they'd probably be right.

Each to their own I say.

Fabhead - yes, people do tell their friends how they think they should give birth.

I startted a thread on ELCS and a poster came on specifically to tell me she thought her friend shouldn't be having one and had told her so.

It happens.

Nothing wrong with joking about your threshold. Nothing nice about commenting on other people's, though, which is what your joke is based on.

I'm not having a go - I'm just trying to say that sometimes it's safer if, when you comment on your own experiences, you leave other people's out of it.

Bellisima - I do think that it is a British thing. I have lived in many other countries around the world where epidurals are normal and births are with consultants. I have never experienced more judgey, judgey attitudes about birth than here.

I believe that what ever informed choice a mother makes is the best choice for her and her baby. That is the only voice that ultimately matters.

That's crap. I've never experienced it. I'm sorry people are being made to feel bad about their choices.

I have had so many battles with the medical profession it doesn't really occur to me that other people stick their oar in - apart from elderly relatives etc but I totally diregard that.

As long as you're happy overall with what you did I suppose that is all that counts, and a healthy baby of course.

Sorry I have not read the whole thread but are we talking about:

Mobile epidurals or the other type of epidural????

As a couple of the posts I have skim read here talk about being able to get up and walk around and feel to push, but I don't know of many hospitals that actually give the option of mobile epidurals in UK.....

There is a big difference in the two types of epidural in my mind; one can help labour, while the other seems to slow things down and forcing the necessity of having to stay laying down and not being in a good position to push etc.

I think it's generally shit all round really.

Have interventions and some people think you're a wimp.

Have a natural birth and some people think you're a smug martyr.

And whilst I joked here about a higher pain threshold, I would never under any circumstances mention it to anyone I know in RL discussion about their birth - epidural or not. Same way I would not expect any of my RL friends to say they think I am an idiot for not having pain relief when they clearly think that - as is their perogative of course.

This discussion has just made me realise that I really don't give a damn what anyone else does in their birth, though of course I want everyone to have good outcomes. I do care about my births and about hospitals giving inadequate care and attention to women in labour, when it happens. That's it.