why are people so against epidurals

[porcamiseria]

I am just curious, as the general vibe here (MN) and with the NCT and some midwifes is they are a bad thing.

I had one as was induced and literally could not cope with pain. I wont go into the whole story but its the usual ventouse, stitches etc. But baby was healthy and fine

My point is for me the epi was a godsend and the intense pains were not bearable.

If it happens again, I will have an epi if I can't cope. am due August, so its pertinent for me

It upsets me rather this attitude that they are to be avoided, as if you DO have one some people might feel like a failure?

I know fabhead, I can tell you're not the smug, insensitive type!

I realise it was just a joke in the context of the thread - I was just using it to illustrate where all the misunderstanding and upset comes from when people say that kind of thing in RL (which I totally accept you wouldn't do).

Fair enough.

If it's any consolation, I had a doctor telling me that I was "making it a very real possibility that your baby will die" first time around because I refused to be induced at 37 weeks, so I think maybe you're right - you can't win. There's always someone making you feel bad in pregnancy and childbirth about something!

I suppose it's good practice for being a parent and school applications ...

Good point about the mobile vs not epidurals - are those stats about intervention based on the non-mobile kind I wonder?

"Okay, so I'm not disbelieving these stories about the NCT teachers, but I am wondering what on earth they have to gain from deliberately giving women misleading facts about epidurals or trying to persuade them to do things 'naturally'"

I can answer that

my NCT teacher was a private home birth MW who followed her shock tactics with handing out her business card - it wall all just a big promotion to her

she said (and I quote, no exaggeration to those who will ask!) "you can choose to go to hospital and "be done to" or you can choose to be in control and have a good birth at home"

By the by, I've met a few pregnant woman recently who (without me mentioning anything of my NCT experiences) said that they are going to the NCT classes for the social aspect not the philosophy. If NHS classes were longer and spread out to allow relationships to be build more, or if another organisation started offering similar, the NCT would be in dire trouble

I dont know anyone who went to NCT for advice (you can find that on the internet), everyone I know went to meet people socially.

Admittedly I only know about 20 people who have been at all but I would imagine most people go to meet other parents?

God no - I go down to the pub for a social life!

In all seriousness, I think the value of the NCT lies in having the chance to gradually practise, week by week, the relaxation and breathing techniques which can be really helpful when giving birth.

As someone else said, the facts and and risks factors of an epidural can be explained in 10 minutes. You don't need 16 hours of NCT lessons for that. At least half of every NCT class I went to, was dedicated to actively doing the breathing, panting, relaxation etc. I could feel myself getting more in tune with it week by week - there was real progression. DH said the same. In fact, if we missed a week, we both felt a bit 'out of touch'. And this was the crucial factor which I believe made a difference in my labour. When the contractions started to get really painful, I had a whole range of strategies to draw on. The relaxation methods helped me get through to begin with.The breathing and visualisation got me through, maybe, another few hours which I wouldn't otherwise have coped with. The advice about moving around - maybe another couple of hours. And DH felt the same - empowered to know how to support me.

That, as I see it, is the NCT at its best. It gave useful, practical advice, to get through labour. Without it, I believe I would have been begging for pain relief. And by the time it got truly horrendous, because I had gradually built up my coping threshold, I was able to keep going.

It's really sad that other people haven't found the NCT as helpful, and clearly there are some not so good teachers around - but at its best, it can achieve its aim of supporting women to give birth without inteventions where possible.

Lilliangish - Your birthing experience is virtually a carbon copy of mine. I also gave birth in Paris and on account of my very positive experience like you HATE the idea of ever having a baby in the UK.

What I like about the Paris doctors and midwives is they say - "Science says THIS is best. So THIS is what we are offering." It is actually unbelievably empowering for everyone involved.

That's shocking Salby.

WRT hospital classes. Round here the hospitals have stopped running them and tell everyone to go to NCT. The NHS are funding those for people who fit their criteria for not being able to afford it.

I don't think the NCT will be in dire trouble if this is the climate. Who WILL be in dire trouble is the many women who subsequently go without any childbirth classes unless the NCT can shake this image that many of you present here which I can assure you is not the one they want.

Violethill - someone in our NCT group asked if we could be taught breating exercises and our a/n teacher was really scathing - going on about how old hat they were and how everyone thinks that's all the NCT offers and it's a totally outdated 70s thing.

She actually did really very little to help us with the practicalities of labour - just slagged off interventions and tried to hoodwink us all into having a home birth.

my NCT teacher did no breathing exercises either
the NHS relaxation class did

I also went to NHS classes which did relaxation and breathing - these were ok, but not as good as NCT in my particular area.

Salbysea I had a similar experience with a private MW and I was so annoyed - she too went on and on about how bad hospitals were and went on and on about how you would be at risk of being cut up.

It made me realise that I would prefer a mw working for the NHS who was not profit oriented, leaving aside the insurance issues of using an "independent" mw.

I am very surprised that the NCT teacher was an independent midwife too, surely that is a conflict of interests and in fact I had to declare when I was the chair of a branch that I owned a baby related business, which was selling clothes so hardly anything "birth" related.
The truth is teachers leave state schools because they are disillusioned and no doubt the same applies to midwifes too.

"but at its best, it can achieve its aim of supporting women to give birth without inteventions where possible.

exactly Violet, but maybe people dont want an "intervention free birth". Maybe they just want to get educated on what a birth is. Maybe they want a pain-free birth? I for example did not even know that the cervix went from 0-10cm, and that the placenta came out after, basic shit like that. People sign up to NCT for education/social and often get this doctrine. I wanted an epidural from day 1. I dont want hours in pain, no sirree, no thanks. I like the French way

also, there is NO BIAS against people that have a natural birth from ppeople on this thread. Good for them! But I do see more preachyness from this arena, sorry!

Porca - this has been discussed at length on the thread. The general concensus is that given the ethos behind the NCT, you're probably best going for an alternative antenatal provision, rather than spending (quite a lot of) money on NCT. It was also fairly widely agreed that the NCT needs to be more upfront about what it will actually offer, so that people aren't parting with their money and finding it's something different to what they were expecting.

I found NHS antenatal classes pretty sound for all the basic stuff (I didn't really have much idea either!) - oh and my Miriam Stoppard book which went through the whole pregnancy and birth stuff.

As for social stuff - well, down the pub always seems a good way to meet people! Also there are coffee mornings and toddler groups once once the baby's arrived, if that's your scene (I didn't go a bundle on those, but each to their own).

So - to sum up - NCT could do better at promoting what it does, and clarifying what classes will cover, but probably not the best option anyway if you've decided you want an epidural from the get go, as you probably won't get your money's worth.

Actually, what's come out of this thread is the importance of distinguishing between:

a) poor teaching. One poster mentioned inaccurate facts being given, and another said that her NCT teacher referred to "nasty" doctors. Obviously this is unprofessional and unacceptable in the NCT or anywhere else

and

b) teaching which is absolutely fine, but which has a particular focus.

There is no problem with the NCT having a focus (if you do a quick read up on Wikepedia, you can see that the movement arose from pro-natural birth doctors and midwives - and this explains the focus on non-intervention unless necessary, and control of birth being given back to women). It just needs to make its ethos and aims clearer in its marketing.

millymollymoo sorry to clarify the independent MW that I was referring to was not an NCT teacher - I apologise for any confusion - as I did not attend NCT classes.

Rather she came along to a birthing fitness group.

I don't really think you can compare the teacher experience to independent Mws.

I thought about complaining about her but I was pregnant and tired.

homebirths are safer than hospital births.

the rise of the medical model and technological advances in childbirth have NOT decreased morbidity rates, in fact the US has some of the worst of these and the WHO is advising a return to midwife rather than obstetric lead care as a result.

Morbidity decreased drastically early last century once the importance of good nutrition and hygiene were realised...increase in medical intervention has NOT decreased baby and maternal death rates.

there has been a load of crap spouted about this on this thread and I thought I ought to counter it.

if you want the evidence base for this, please google as there is absolutely tons but this (pro homebirth, just to be clear) website cites several US studies for a start here

I realise that this is off thread, but the thread went off thread iyswim...

Porc, there is a definite group of people who will gladly hand out medals to natural birthers and sniff slightly at anyone who chooses intervention of any kind.
You know this is about their need for validation and their insecurities don't you?
You come across as someone who can make informed decisions.
Have the epidural, enjoy it and try not to give another thought to what anyone else thinks.

Our DTs would still be 'inside' had epidural not been invented, simply because I loathe pain, any kind of pain and expect modern medicine to rid me of any, pronto. (Of course, there are terrible limitations in treating chronic pain so not belittling real sufferers).
However, decided before I knew that having twins, that elective Csection will be the only way for me.
Had an easy pregnancy and elective that was a joy. The birth of our DTs was fantastic. Took my painkillers for 4 days and didn't feel any pain, bless the modern medicine!
The nonsense spanned by weirdos that Csection inhibits your bonding with your baby is utter stupidity, really. If anything, 12 hours of terrible pain would do that surely...
Oh and I breastfeed my DTs immediately as well.
As for the 'tea and biccies for natural birth 'experience', well, I had champers and sushi .

I still don't know who you lot are mixing with who is actually spouting stuff like 'CSections mean you can't bond with your baby'.

I never had any problem bonding with dd2 after mine. As you say Rollmops, a csection is painless.

It's just a different experience to natural birth. I suppose that's one advantage of having done it both ways - you really understand the differences.

Have to say, I'd probably have chucked up if I'd been given sushi immediately after pushing out the baby

Oh, they made me wait for four loooong hours before was able to send DH to fetch sushi, was threatening to go myself. I really felt fabulous, no pain or nausea. Realise that not everyone is as lucky but my biggest discomfort was hunger.
Bytheby, it's MN 'wisdom' that Csection is 'bad' for bonding.....

I'm not sure 'down the pub' is the best way to meet people when you've got a newborn who doesn't sleep and feeds on demand, lol!!!

welldine rollmops - great food choice [wink}

Rollmops I'd never heard the c-section means you can't bond line until recently when DH told his (male) colleague I am having a c-s and he declared "there's an issue with bonding when you do it that way".

I don't know where he got that from, but as you say the school of thought definitely seems to be out there.

I agree on your other point too - I didn't bond with my DD til we left the hospital after her vaginal birth. Her birth was horrific - I had no extra reserves to do anything other than survive my time in there and make sure she was fed and changed.