why are people so against epidurals

[porcamiseria]

I am just curious, as the general vibe here (MN) and with the NCT and some midwifes is they are a bad thing.

I had one as was induced and literally could not cope with pain. I wont go into the whole story but its the usual ventouse, stitches etc. But baby was healthy and fine

My point is for me the epi was a godsend and the intense pains were not bearable.

If it happens again, I will have an epi if I can't cope. am due August, so its pertinent for me

It upsets me rather this attitude that they are to be avoided, as if you DO have one some people might feel like a failure?

Agree MumNWLondon that a lot of this is about the choices in your own particular area anyway. Where I lived when I had my first, it was standalone MLU or big, regional hospital. The MLU was closer to me, it was where I had all my antenatal appointments, so I knew all the midwives in the small team (important to me, as I really wanted to know whoever might be on their shift when I happened to go into labour) and most importantly, I loved the small, home-from-home atmosphere.

It wasn't a specific decision to go to a standalone; it was just what was available. The hospital did not have a comparable birthing centre. If my local MLU had happened to be attached to a hospital, then I guess I would have booked in there.

If you go to a standalone, you have to go with the mindset that you will go without epidural, because they will only transfer you if necessary due to need; it's not like popping along the corridor if you decide you want an epidural.

I found it fab anyway. Definitely the right decision for me.

Violethill - hadn't thought about continuity of care point - I have had no continuity of care at all, which is a shame and I will not know any of the hospital MLU midwifes when I turn up. The nearest hospital to us has a standalone MLU, so I might have had that option as well...

.. but I have an underlying medical condition, not serious enough that I couldn't go to a hospital MLU (as my condition doesn't affect labour at all) but I don't think I would have been able to have my ante-natal care at a stand-alone MLU. I might have been able to transfer in there at 34-36 weeks perhaps.

TBH I was surprised when the hospital MLU midwife told me that most women transfering out where doing so to have epidural. But if its as easy as going up in lift to floor above, perhaps a bit too easy to change your mind.

I have had one completely natural birth, and two induced. First one, gas and air ran out and I experienced the full power of natural pushing sensations that did NOT hurt just felt like bizarre desire to do an enormous poo. Rather satisfying in fact. Second, very late baby, very fast birth, had pethidine which made me hallucinate because all contractions coming at once. Thought I needed to go to loo, even though done it before. Rather physically shocking. Third birth, induced against my better judgement at 40 weeks(I was ancient) and baby reluctant to emerge. The escalating strength of drugs they used were agonising so I had my first epi. Could not feel pushing contractions at all. Think if this happens for first birth, you might never give birth at all as you cannot 'hear' what your body is saying and respond appropriately. This is why there are so many caesars with epis I think.

I had an epidural during my first child im now pregnant with my second child and am due to give birth in 2 weeks... I feel it is my right to have a epidural, it should be up to the person having the child whether they have one or not. I found having it with my first the most incredible thing why go through that pain if you dont have to.

Im going to insist i have another epidural on the next one, at the end of the day thats why i pay my taxes... And stuff anyone else who judges me for that!

As a lawyer who has handled many claims where women have been paralysed by mismanaged epidurals I would never have had one. I had 2 c-sections (not able to gice birth naturally) and had ventouse, forceps etc also (all before the doctors/midwives told me I could not deliver vaginally!) There is no guarantee they work, in fact sometimes they take effect on one side and not the other or, they fail altogether. If it goes wrong it could mean lifetime paralysis as some of my clients had.

Other than that, I think that if you can handle the pain with gas and air and pethidene then go for it. For those of us with a high pain threshold that it fine but I have friends who can't even stand having an injection so I guess the risk is worth it to them.

Rosarugosa, such sweeping statements and scaremongering without any data to back up your claims do not sound like they are coming from a law professional to be honest.

My dad had an epidural for a hernia. It's not just for us ladies!

Why are you so surprised that women have been paralysed by epidurals? Its not very many women but all medical procedures carry some risk, for most who have an epidural its a risk worth taking as the risk is very small and the pain can be very big. There are risks from childbirth and also from all medical procedures.

there a risk of being paralyzed or permanent damage?

CS (and epidural) increases rate of maternal death compared to a VB. But its not very relevant as even if the risk is 3 times higher (seem to remember reading its something like that), its 3 x a tiny number and again the benefits outweigh the risks.

Absolutely. The risk is very very small, but it's still there, and that needs to be part of the decision making process for a woman.

Personally I felt the risk of permanant paralysis was so small as to be negligible, so that in itself wouldn't have put me off one, but I felt the risk of an epidural affecting the natural rythm of labour, possibly slowing things down, and the increased risk of intervention, meant that I didn't want one.

The other factor - which isn't a risk at all, it's a certainty - was that an epidural always makes the birth more medicalised, it always means having an anaesthetist, and being closely monitored, and having reduced or zero control of your body. Even if you avoid forceps or other invasive procedures, those facts about epidural are a certainty - which I think is why many women really want to do without them if possible. Yes, there are very small risks of really nasty damage but those probably aren't key factors for most women - it's all the other things.

Of course all medical procedures carry some risk, why, you can have facial paralyses from dental anaesthesia as happened to a friend of mine, and removing a splinter can end with septicemia....never mind epidurals or GA.
Taking paracetamol can kill you....
What I objected to was the quite simple, but scaremongering nevertheless, coming from a self-proclaimed law professional.
As you said, all medical procedures carry some risk, however, risk of paralyses from epidural is not that great as the 'lawyer' portrayed in her post.
Please try and find your source of the '3 times' risk if you could, the Csections have been in massive rise over the past 20 years yet maternal deaths have fallen by 35% over the same time, according to Lancet.

Agree rollmops - that 'law' post didn't ring true to me either.

I honestly think the risk of really major permanent damage to the mother from an epidural is minuscule.

However, as I outlined above, I think there certainties about the epidural procedure - the medicalisation of the birth - which makes it an intervention many women don't want.

actually i'm not sure if thats not right, maternal death rates which fell in the UK substantially over the last 100 years haven't really fallen at all in the last 20 years. death rates in developing countries have fallen a lot over the last 20 years.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8616250.stm

In the USA there has been no improvement in maternal death rates since 1982 even though the CS rate has increased significantly during this time. The US maternal death rate was low anyway in 1982 though.

re: up to three times death rate from Ina may's guide to childbirth book p288 she writes:
when Cs is elective with no emergency present , the women's chance of dying from the procedure is nearly three times that of a non surgical birth - she quotes:
Chez, RA and Stark, The Misgav Ladach method of Cesearian section, Comtemporary Ob/Gyn June 1998, 81-88

Agree, violethill
Just remembered, when I had my Csection, I had to 'sign my life away' and all the potential risks were clearly shown on the consent form. It begs a question, on what grounds could anyone sue if the epidural 'goes wrong', if one has agreed to the procedure, fully aware of its risks?
Surgeon being intoxicated and singing rude songs perhaps...

www.physorg.com/news190462124.html

"Richard Horton, editor of the Lancet, said he was disappointed when maternal health advocates pressured him to delay publishing the report until September, after several critical fundraising meetings. He also wrote a commentary in Lancet on the pressure.

"Activists perceive a lower maternal mortality figure as actually diluting their message," he told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "Advocacy can sometimes get in the way of science."

He did not name any group or individual who tried to pressure him.

In their paper, Christopher Murray and colleagues at the Institute for Health Metrics at the University of Washington found that maternal deaths have fallen from about 500,000 deaths in 1980 to about 343,000 in 2008. The study in the Lancet was based on more data than was previously available in addition to statistical modeling and was paid for by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

The numbers from that study you quoted are worldwide, and the BBC website which quotes the same numbers from the same study points out that the majority of the fall relates to developments in developing countries where there has been significant improvements to womens health in the past 20 years.

Hi I have read all the comments on epidurals. Some things are accurate others are not. One of the overwhelming reasons that babies are not born vaginally is that we are becoming increasingly sedentary and
rates of obesity are soaring.
The need for epidurals often comes hand in hand with a difficult labour ie: back to back position. These labours are more likely to result in an assisted delivery anyway.
Epidurals can prolong the second stage of labour BUT these days the drugs used are lower in concentration so you can still have the muscle power to push and "feel" contractions. It is very true that continuous CTG monitoring is associated with higher rates of intervention, which also goes with having an epidural. What I am trying to say is,with a complicated labour (eg induction ,abnormal position)
you are more likely to have an
intervention irrespective of an epidural or not.
I should know as I am an obstetric anaesthetist in a large maternity unit. I also had an epidural after not being able to deliver naturally. It was fantastic after 16 hours of pain.
In the end its your choice what you do as long as you are informed of the risks and benefits.

Hi - good point about 'consent' to feel inferior - we are the ones growing and delivering and nurturing the babies after all! Just wanted to point out gently that some of us - quite a lot actually - keep Mum but we do not have pain in labour...
Mega-powerful yes, amazing being taken over by the brain and the conscious totally sidelined but true! I was simply unaware that first stage was happening with both of mine and only noticed at the beginning of second - the midwife couldn't credit it. V. quick deliveries, tearing yes and some, I just messed about with gas and air as something to do and enhance Oxygen uptake. Pain is I believe used as a weapon by the brain to clobber an uncooperative conscious mind into submission. Possibly if, throughout pregnancy one listens, obeys and submits to the brain's demands (drink water when thirsty, nap when tired and accept that that one's body now has a different priority with a good grace) it may just not bother to hit you! I wish that someone would actually research why some of us have pain, different types of it and how we might prepare better - but a)no drug company is interested and b) the pain issue is actually dividing women from each other - as if it is a moral issue! - which is a great pity.
Best wishes all!

I was induced a week earlier than my due date on advice, which didn't go to plan. I had to have an epidural and although i felt no pain when it came to the final push it was difficult as you have to imagine the sensation. Thankfully the midwife told me exactly what to think of to make this happen. It's hard to say if i would have coped with a natural birth with the tens machine and gas and air, i like to think i'd have given it my best shot to experience it without all the intervention. In the end all that matters is that your baby arrives safely and all the labour is soon forgot.

Haven't got time to read more than a page or two, so appologies if everybody has said all this already...

Epidurals are the font of all evil and lead directly to more CSs and more forceps deliveries, resulting in more damage to mothers, medicalising birth and disempowering women.

HOWEVER. In the world we live in, with people assuming that normal birth is a scary, hideously painful experience which needs to take place in hospital to be safe; where the media reinforce this, and people are regaled with horror stories from a young age; where women are inadequately prepared for normal labour: epidurals are absolutely required to help a lot of mums have a bearable experience.

In a perfect world: the media would portray birth as a normal bodily function; women would regale each other with wonderful stories of their empowerment; everybody would be healthy, active and eating perfect diets; there would be one-to-one care through pregnancy and birth; hypnobirthing and pregnancy yoga courses, birth pools and weekly relaxing massages would be free on the NHS; the midwife would come out to your house when you wanted her to; you would decide during labour if you wanted to go to hospital or not; midwives and obstetricians would be indocrinated in natural birth and committed to doing their best to achieve it for all women in their care (apart from those that are truly high risk of course); and homebirth rates would be up to 50%.

Births for most women would be less painful, epidural rates would be way down, and birth satisfaction scores would be way up.

And even in this world there would still be women who, for whatever reason, had difficult and painful births - who need an epidural. Statistically speaking, there is really not that much point hanging on through a gruelling labour when adequate pain-relief such as an epidural could make all the difference and prevent you getting PTSD.

What a lovely, well balanced post that was

I haven't read the whole thread, but for me personally I couldn't consider one because the thought of a needle going into my spine freaks me out really really badly.

I have never encountered any level of pain in my life that would be worse than the thought of that to me.

I haven't read all the other posts but I had my daughter at the end of November, with an epidural. I had heard lots of stories about increases in intervention etc and was very afraid of that as my worst fear is forceps (would rather have a c-section - just my opinion!). However, I think I was dilating quite quickly once it started properly - about 5am and she was born at 13:25 - first baby. I got to hospital and was 5 cm and almost fainting with every contraction by the time I got the epidural an hour later (8am).

It was amazing for me - took the pain away and made the entire experience so much more relaxed. I think I was about 6/7cm when epi went in. My contractions slowed down on the monitor but I was fully dilated by about 11/11:30am. However, I only topped myself up twice and last top up was at about 10am. So by the time I was ready to push it had worn off quite a bit - I feel a lot to push. The midwife was actually very surprised at how little I had used. I pushed her out in 50 mins, in spite of her hand being by her head (so she took a while to get under the pubic bone) and had a small internal tear (from her hand) which was stitched quickly. So no damage as a result of the epidural, I was able to move positions and I thought it was the best thing ever! But I was quite lucky I think.

Just had fourth DC with epidural last week. Seven hour labour, calm, mellow, fantastic. I don't feel either superior or inferior to anyone else, but am glad my baby had such a calm entrance, I didn't make a single squeak or moan, felt only a bit of pain when epidural wore off towards end, and no panicky hormones rushing round body.

Even the fact that I couldn't feel a lot to push felt like a bonus for me. It was a very slow, controlled, gentle second stage and I'm sure we both came out of it in better shape as a result - I have pinged back quicker than any previous time.

I'm sure epidurals can cause complications with first births but frankly my body knows what to do after three previous goes, so why not give myself a break and do it pain-free?!

I'm so please this thread has only appeared this weekend, there's some serious stroppy views on here!
My waters broke early last Wednesday morning 8 days before my due date. I was monitored before being sent home for labour to occur naturally. unfortunatley it didn't, so I went in on Thursday at 10am to be induced. They tried the gel first which had a mild effect, but no dilation. The pain was pretty severe by 7.30pm (though not established labour)so I requested gas and air. My birth plan was very idealistic - no drugs/intervention etc and I was terrified at the prospect of having an epidural.
By 11pm I was in such severe pain that I was vomiting violently and I had diamorphine. Unfortunately still no dilation. At midnight they advised an epidural, which I agreed to. Being from a family of medics, I was very anti epidural convinced that it would go wrong. However I was given a mobile epidural so my legs weren't numb. I didn't feel the injection at all and was treated superbly. I was examined at 4am, told that I was fully dilated and ready to push. My mum arrived at 4.30am i n time for the first push and my beautiful baby boy was born at 5.21am by ventouse as his heart rate was erratic.
Before the pain relief, it was the most horrific pain I had ever experienced - and I am a relaxed person who can cope with severe pain. I think that teenage girls should be given graphic accounts of actual childbirth rather than the fluffy image we're fed all to often.
I'm having an epidural asap next time and not trying to be brave/martyr/hippy!