why are people so against epidurals

[porcamiseria]

I am just curious, as the general vibe here (MN) and with the NCT and some midwifes is they are a bad thing.

I had one as was induced and literally could not cope with pain. I wont go into the whole story but its the usual ventouse, stitches etc. But baby was healthy and fine

My point is for me the epi was a godsend and the intense pains were not bearable.

If it happens again, I will have an epi if I can't cope. am due August, so its pertinent for me

It upsets me rather this attitude that they are to be avoided, as if you DO have one some people might feel like a failure?

LOL I meant getting to know people before the birth. (In response to people who said they went to NCT mainly for the social aspect. I just think if that's what you're primarily paying for, you're likely to be disappointed!)

Well I went for the social aspect as I was new to the area and met three really good friends there.

Plenty of us do.

Never made a friend down the pub though

There are some really interesting viewpoints on here, but as my DH says, if men gave birth they would use all the pain relief they could get their hands on. In his mind, he says that if you were having teeth removed, or an appendix op, you would not go without pain relief... I think each to their own, some women cope amazingly with no intervention and good on them, equally, if you need pain relief then use it without feeling guilty. I ended up having an emergency c-sec with my DS and although it wasn't what I envisaged, I was still over the moon when DS was handed to me and high as a kite so I don't feel I missed out. That said, the recovery from the c-sec was cr*p.

Just to reply back to GB

The point I was trying to make is that when you talk about the 'end justifying the means' with regard to childbirth ( a very medical interpretation?) the actual individual childbirth experience does matter with regard to maternal mental health.

I was not suggesting that epidurals contribute to maternal suicide (wow what a jump!) - please check out the report I mentioned - merely that although childbirth could be considered safer in terms of outcome of live births and reduced maternal death - the bigger threat to maternal health now comes from the physcological aspect of birth. How traumatic that birth is for that mother, whether the delivery is straightforward, requires intervention or ends up as a section.

I would not tell a mother how to give birth - and yet this is probably happening right now somewhere on a delivery suite in a way that ensures a favourable outcome (for who?) namely a mother and a baby still alive after delivery. This should not be the only favourable outcome should it?

How many women feel a failure and feel traumatised by what has happened?

A medicalised way of looking at birth has no doubt improved physical outcomes of mother and baby - more attention needs paying to the psychological impact of birth, something which is obviously lacking judging by these message boards, various support websites and enquires carried out by the medical profession.

No woman should feel the need to defend what happened during her birth experience - and yet this happens all the time. However I do believe all mothers should be provided with the opportunity to hear the pros and cons of all aspects of birth - the problem to face is that some people will not want to hear the negatives.

iam, LOL at the male collegue. TWAT

almost as mad as the twat arese of a male male midwife here

www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/acute-care/pregnant-women-losing-rites-of-passage-through- epidural-use/5003938.article

words fail me!!!!

That's the chap I was talkinf about upthread porc! Thank you! I love the way he says pain prepares you for the responsibility of motherhood. How do men become responsible parents then?

Going back to the bonding thing - it's often bandied about as if it's quantifiable, I'd love to know how people 'measure' the level of bonding that goes on.

Why are you reading these articles though porca?

You said in your OP that you had an epidural before, and will have one again with your next baby if you want one, so why go out of your way to antagonise yourself with different viewpoints?

It is your decision, as you've pointed out yourself several times, so why not just think 'Yes, I've made my decision, and I'm ok with it?'

You won't find that everyone agrees with you - we're all different - so why not accept that?

good question Violet!!! I have got a bit obsessed, "bit" being an understatement. Its time to move on, agree

But I found that midfwife ages ago and only posted it again as IAM mentioend him

as for where some of us are hearing these viewpoints:

I was told at a breast feeding support group that I could have had my baby naturally using PMA (by someone who'd had 2 very short prob free labors). I couldn't he'd be dead inside a dead mother. I was just days post birth and a bit fragile and no-one came to my defense.

I was also told by a male (childless) colleague of DH (while preg at his chirstmas party) that getting a gender scan is wrong natural birth is best for bonding. Went outside to get away from him and a childless girl in her early 20s bombarded me with "will you breast feed, are you going to go natural or are you 'too posh to push'" and went on to tell how BFing and natural birth is better etc - err give it a go love, THEN get back to me

when you're pregnant or a new mum you can sometimes feel like a sounding board for random strangers. I've even had a TOTAL stranger ask me in the supermarket if I was breast feeding "err yes??" - "oh good" they said!

There are clearly some weirdos out there!!

I think to some extent, whatever you choose, you will come across a few people who question your decision. (Though thankfully I've never come across anyone as strange as some of you lot).

But - as an example - when I decided to have dc1 in a MLU, there were a few 'doom and gloom merchants' who commented 'Ooh aren't you brave? Aren't you worried something will go wrong? Surely a hospital is safest' etc

For a while, I gave my genuine response, explaining that the MLU had an exemplary safety record, no baby had ever in its history died or been injured as a result of birth there, I knew the all of the small team of midwives from antenatal classes, I felt that for me, birth was a normal part of life and I didn't want to be numbed up and strapped down etc etc...... People just didn't want to hear it.

So you know what? In the end, I just gave lighthearted responses. If anyone asked why I'd chosen to deliver there, I'd say 'I've heard the food's great!' or 'It'll save on petrol rather than driving further to hospital'.

And the strange thing was, that just shut people up! They were happier to have a ridiculous response than the genuine reasons why I was quite happy to have a non-medicalised birth...

Funny old world. So, maybe develop a few good responses to shut people up?

People just ask questions for the sake of asking questions and hearing their own voice - has sod all to do with your answer!

Violethill I'm glad the birth went well for you in the MLU. If anyone asked me for advice on where to give birth I would say hospital every time. Am I a "doom and gloom merchant"? No, just a woman who gave birth to a "dead" baby who was (luckily) revived but needed to stay in NICU and is disabled for life. I actually wanted to have a home birth but was scared off the idea by the D and G merchants and thank God I was or I would have been burying my baby girl. Never say never, I would rather err on the side of caution every time.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience brightyoungthing. And obviously your experience influences any further decisions you may need to make.

But that's exactly my point. It is your experience and your decision.

Fortunately I'm quite reslient, and I didn't let it get to me when (a few) people tutted and acted as if I was doing something strange. but actually, for a more vulnerable person, it's pretty offensive isn't it, to suggest that deciding to have their baby in a MLU is somehow deliberately putting that baby at risk? Especially when I had actually thought long and hard, I had researched all the facts, and I knew that for my first, straightforward pregnancy, having a natural birth without invasive procedures presented the least risk.

I can identify with where you're coming from, because my dc2 was born in hospital by Csection to save her life. When I subsequently had dc3 (normal pregnancy) I was told that the least risky option was vaginal birth, but in hospital because of the slight risk of scar rupture. I don't like hospitals, and would have preferred to be at home but I put my feelings to one side and delivered in hospital for the sake of my baby's safety.

Hmm re C-sections and bonding.

With both DC I've thought maybe they bonded better and sooner with DP than they might have otherwise, because he was the first to hold them and talk to them. But, that doesn't mean it has to damage bonding with the mother, and in fact it feels to me like a good thing that DP had those first moments with them.

What might be less good for bonding is feeling traumatised and like a failure, and possibly even becoming depressed, because you ended up having a CS (or other assisted birth) - and those feelings IMO are engendered mainly by the sub-group of "natural birth" pushers who suggest that any women can do it all without help as long as she tries hard enough and has the right attitude.

Good point MarineIguana. I had months and months of a potential CS hanging over my head, and when it was finally booked I had a couple of weeks to be pissed off, disappointed and then come to terms with having to have it.
If it had been an emergency I'd have had to deal with those feelings as well as having a baby to cope with! Add that to mums feeling knackered because they'd done labour too. No wonder lots of them feel like a failure. All bollocks but perfectly understandable.

Ha, sorry but in my book one would be an absolute failure and a tosspot of highest order if one gave a flying so-and-so about what others(as in everyone but one and ones DH) think about ones choice of birth. Now that would make one a total, über moron indeed.

violethill, I got exactly the same about booking into a MLU, in particular I got HORRIBLE doom and gloom stories from a friend who trained as a MW yonks ago (but doesn't now work as one) about how she'd want to be near a NICU because she "knows what can happen" (que her launching into a list of horror stories)

I pretty much cut her off for the rest of the pregnancy, but y'know what, when I said later that I was booked into hospital (a lie, I just didn't wanna hear the MLU doom and gloom) she gave me hell for not having a home birth! NOW apparently that's what she'd do LOL

Some people just like to tell you that you're wrong to show off what little information they have in their heads about the subject

Exactly!

And quite apart from anything else, we live in a world now which is so risk-aware, and litigious, that MLUs would be shut down in the blink of an eye if they were deemed to be anything other than extremely safe.

When I had my VBAC, I would have found it easier to get a home birth than a MLU - the MLU wouldn't touch me because I was now 'high risk'. As I said, I opted for hospital that time, precisely because I put my baby first, rather than my own dislike of medicalisation.

But people who are dismissive of MLUs really do not know what they're talking about. They are exceptionally safe. I do wonder, with this particular issue, there's just a touch of envy, because all my NCT friends who booked into hospital couldn't wait to get back to the MLU for the post natal care after they'd had their babies - they said the post natal care was far superior, and a couple even told me they wished afterwards they had booked in there too.

are you talking about MLU inside hospital (ie adjacent to labour ward) or a standalone. i am going to one inside big London hospital, don't know what attitude to VBAC is, but its only one floor underneath labour ward.

personally i'd rather have a homebirth than go to a standalone MLU - home is more comfortable and familiar, no doctors in either location and if there is a problem you need to go to hospital either way...

surely there shouldn't be any reason why you couldn't go to a MLU inside a hospital - ie surely that should be easier to fight for than homebirth????

No, not inside a hospital. The safety record was as high as any MLU inside a hospital so it made no difference to me.

I've been in both (standalone MLU, transfer to hospital, postnatal ward in hospital then transfer back to postnatal ward in MLU)

I personally wouldn't touch a MLU again with a barge pole based on my own experience - IMO a home birth would be a much safer option.

But I don't (think I..) put that on pregnant women I meet who are booked into the MLU. If asked I say I've been to both, and you hear good and bad things about both, personally I'd heard horror stories about the hospital but had a really good experience with them so if you're booked into the MLU don't be as terrified of being transferred to the hospital as I was because the ambulance ride actually worked like a big tens machine to distract from the pain (I asked them to go round the block again when we got there ) and I had fab staff at the hospital.

I don't think that's projecting my own utter hatred for the MLU too much is it? and I'm not lying either, I only praise the hospital

Brightyoungthing I can not even begin to imagine the experience that you went through but I just wanted to say that I am sorry to her about your experience in a MLU.

eatsushi Thanks for the kind words but this happened in a hospital!! I may have been better off in a MLU as I've heard they have more staff.

ok understand now.

I think thats the point about MLUs - there is more staff and hence more one to one care.

And I think there is no point in saying well it was lucky I wasn't at home, because the outcome might have been different at home as you might have been more relaxed in your own surroundings etc.

I decided not to go to standalone MLU because as I said before I can't see the point, you may as well be at home. You need to be transferred in an emergency either way.

Because I live in North London there are lots of choices, and hence I am going to a hospital MLU, however I don't think you can compare outcomes between the two easily because they told me (at the hospital MLU) that most women who transfer out its not because there is a problem rather because they want to go to labour ward to get epidural - I think its a different sort of person who goes to a standalone MLU.